Apple Montage / Will Dockery

[Will Dockery]

Apple Montage

Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.

Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.

To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.

There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.

Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.

I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.

I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.

The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.

-Will Dockery

--------------------------------------------

The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.

Read original tread at:
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

[b***@gmail.com]

..lovely imagery..took me back to my youth*

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

[Raine Carosin]

Yes, I remember myself too, amazed on an apple farm... It was truly a maze of whining insects...

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

[Will Dockery]

Post by Raine Carosin
Yes, I remember myself too, amazed on an apple farm... It was truly a maze of whining insects...

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

Thanks for reading and commenting, Raine.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Thanks, folks, and...

That's my cousin Jenny Whitley Ledford on the far right, with Gloria Whitley Duniphin, Brother Dave and myself... in a land and time far far away, long lost.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156517562794363&set=gm.2094683653905047&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Join Jenny and myself in this poem, in which I go back there again, for a moment.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Thanks, folks, and...

That's my cousin Jenny on the far right, with Gloria, Brother Dave and myself... in a land and time far far away, long lost.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156517562794363&set=gm.2094683653905047&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Join Jenny and myself in this poem, in which I go back there again, for a moment.

:)

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

Stealth is wealth great poem Kids Smokin' and Hidin' Adults sneakin'liquor by daylight the rich smells that linger in ones memories to be brought back in an instance by the faintest smell of their resemblance.
Good writing, Great visual notes.
Rick B.

[Will Dockery]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery

Stealth is wealth great poem Kids Smokin' and Hidin' Adults sneakin'liquor by daylight the rich smells that linger in ones memories to be brought back in an instance by the faintest smell of their resemblance.
Good writing, Great visual notes.
Rick B.

Thanks for reading and commenting, Rick, you definitely get where I'm coming from.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

Stealth is wealth great poem Kids Smokin' and Hidin' Adults sneakin'liquor by daylight the rich smells that linger in ones memories to be brought back in an instance by the faintest smell of their resemblance.
Good writing, Great visual notes.
Rick B.

Thanks for reading and commenting, Rick B, you definitely get where I'm coming from.

:)

--
R&R BLUES co.
Blues / Other Grooves, Originals Hudson, NH
https://www.reverbnation.com/rrbluesco

[Will Dockery]

Thanks, folks, and...

That's my cousin Jenny on the far right, with Gloria, Brother Dave and myself... in a land and time far far away, long lost.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156517562794363&set=gm.2094683653905047&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Join Jenny and myself in this poem, in which I go back there again, for a moment.

:)

[1***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

Childhood memories always in memory remain. good or bad. I thank!

[Will Dockery]

More of the kind of poetry that win me the Perky Award.

Not so bad, if I do say so myself.

😀

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
More of the kind of poetry that win me the Perky Award.
Not so bad, if I do say so myself.

Is this what you've come to? Boasting about a local award you won twenty years ago and praising your own poem?

[averts eyes and walks by at a quick pace]

[drive-by]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery
More of the kind of poetry that win me the Perky Award.
Not so bad, if I do say so myself.

Is this what you've come to? Boasting about a local award you won twenty years ago and praising your own poem?
[averts eyes and walks by at a quick pace]

pitiful

[Will Dockery]

It was done in an obviously jesting tone, Pendragon, but aren't you by a bit hypocritical, considering your own egoism, such as always placing name on top ten poet lists, and so on?

😀

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
It was done in an obviously jesting tone, Pendragon, but aren't you by a bit hypocritical, considering your own egoism, such as always placing name on top ten poet lists, and so on?

Be that as it may, I've never once boasted of having repeatedly made my own Top Ten Poets list.

[Brooke]

Post by Will Dockery
It was done in an obviously jesting tone, Pendragon, but aren't you by a bit hypocritical, considering your own egoism, such as always placing name on top ten poet lists, and so on?

The Doyle Defense? How weak when you use the usual "I was only joking" when caught doing your usual bullshit bragging and attacks.

[ME]

And Brooke, I thought will didn't really do or get sarcasm.
I guess it comes down to however it works best for him in the situation.

[Will Dockery]

Sarcasm is like any other form of humor, it has to be funny to be effective.

:)

[ME]

Sarcasm is not a form of humor, will.

[Will Dockery]

But you do include your name on your ten best poet lists, several times that I've seen, Pendragon.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
But you do include your name on your ten best poet lists, several times that I've seen, Pendragon.

Yes, Will. I always do.

I said that I don't boast about it being on my lists.

Get it? Boasting about having *my* name on *my* list would be as silly as if I'd boasted about my having won a local contest in Podunk, New Jersey.

[Will Dockery]

Typo alert:

"Won" not "Win".

😀

[George J. Dance]

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.

Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.

And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).

In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

[ME]

So y'all are saying now that it's a montage of trees? So would that be Tree Montage or Apple tree Montage?

[drive-by]

Post by ME
So y'all are saying now that it's a montage of trees? So would that be Tree Montage or Apple tree Montage?

It isn't a montage at all..perhaps if those trees turned brown as the dialogue continued....stated as such...perhaps a montage could be milked...as it is...it's two sneaking a smoke watching as another two stir some mash......the end.

[Will Dockery]

Post by drive-by
It isn't a montage

You don't even know what an apostrophe is, Jim, much less a montage.

Heh...

[George J. Dance]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by drive-by
It isn't a montage

You don't even know what an apostrophe is, Jim, much less a montage.
Heh...

I could point out that that particular criticism is as silly as criticizing "The Blue Symphony" because it's a poem, not a symphony. However, since I doubt that any of those critics have any idea what "The Blue Symphony" is, it would probably be a waste of effort.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery

Post by drive-by
It isn't a montage

You don't even know what an apostrophe is, Jim, much less a montage.
Heh...

I could point out that that particular criticism is as silly as criticizing "The Blue Symphony" because it's a poem, not a symphony. However, since I doubt that any of those critics have any idea what "The Blue Symphony" is, it would probably be a waste of effort.

It's a "symphony" in the same way that it's a "poem" -- viz., in its author's pretensions to each.

[Will Dockery]

Poetic license, as you put it, Pendragon.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
Poetic license, as you put it, Pendragon.

Yes, and of the K-Mart var., no doubt.

[Will Dockery]

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.
Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.
And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).
In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

I was up on the old family land recently, and too a few snapshots of the area where the old barn and the apple butter was cooked, and the other pieces of the montage, you might fin the present day images of interest, although they would form a very different poem from the scene of forty years ago:

Photo, Apple Montage 1:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf1wXHsn12a/?taken-by=willdockery007

Photo, Apple Montage 2:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf1wc6aHmkm/?taken-by=willdockery007

Photo, Apple Montage 3:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf1xJlGH2_Y/?taken-by=willdockery007

[Will Dockery]

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.
Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.
And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).
In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

That's part of the montage effect, right there.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.
Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.
And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).
In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

That's part of the montage effect, right there.

Repetition is a different literary device.

Transliterated to the cinematic medium, your tree sequence would most likely be accomplished via a crane shot. The smoking teens would step out of the shot, shifting the focus to the trees. The camera would dolly out and crane up to reveal increasingly dense rows of trees.

In terms of the narrative, the tree sequence serves as a bridge between the two scenes which make up the story.

Nothing here even remotely resembles anything that would be considered a "montage."

[ME]

Pen? Do the rules and guidelines for montage poetry allow for poetic license? If so, do rules and guidelines for sonnets also allow for poetic license?

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by ME
Pen? Do the rules and guidelines for montage poetry allow for poetic license?

The rules? No.

One either uses an existing literary device, or one doesn't.

The title? Yes.

Will's poem doesn't have to be about apples, or include an example of literary montage. He can say (as he has) that he sees a mental montage of apples when he reads the poem and go with that.

It's misleading, and will leave a critical reader scratching his/her head, but should fly with Will's audience of Russian musician friends.

If so, do rules and guidelines for sonnets also allow for poetic license?

No. A sonnet is a specific poetic form. If a poem follows that form, it's a sonnet. If it deviates from that form, it's some other style of poem. If it switches its meter every line or two, and often abandons it altogether ... it's not so much a poem as an "epic fail."

[ME]

Thanks Pen for the clarification. I actually think I understood that. I'll earmark this for future endeavors.
You've been very forgiving of my submissions.
And I'm grateful.

[George J. Dance]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.
Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.
And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).
In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

That's part of the montage effect, right there.

Repetition is a different literary device.

Yes, Poesydragon: "repetition" is not the same thing as "montage". I'm talking about the criticism of the former.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Transliterated to the cinematic medium, your tree sequence would most likely be accomplished via a crane shot. The smoking teens would step out of the shot, shifting the focus to the trees. The camera would dolly out and crane up to reveal increasingly dense rows of trees.

I don't know if this is even worth discussing, but: if I were making a video for this poem, I wouldn't use live action at all. I'd present it as a series of black-and-white still photos. That's what's suggested by the title, and that's how I mentally see the poem's events.

Post by Michael Pendragon
In terms of the narrative, the tree sequence serves as a bridge between the two scenes which make up the story.

Exactly why it's there, rather than at the end where it used to be.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Nothing here even remotely resembles anything that would be considered a "montage."

The only reason I mentioned the "montage effect" was in pointing out that there'd be several different pictures of the trees - maybe even shot the way you suggest, but presented in the video as simple black-and-white stills (changing every time the word "trees" was said). But it's the question of repetition that I was talking about, not what the word "montage" means or suggests.

[Will Dockery]

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.
Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.
And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).
In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

That's part of the montage effect, right there.

Repetition is a different literary device.

Yes, Poesydragon: "repetition" is not the same thing as "montage". I'm talking about the criticism of the former.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Transliterated to the cinematic medium, your tree sequence would most likely be accomplished via a crane shot. The smoking teens would step out of the shot, shifting the focus to the trees. The camera would dolly out and crane up to reveal increasingly dense rows of trees.

I don't know if this is even worth discussing, but: if I were making a video for this poem, I wouldn't use live action at all. I'd present it as a series of black-and-white still photos. That's what's suggested by the title, and that's how I mentally see the poem's events.

Post by Michael Pendragon
In terms of the narrative, the tree sequence serves as a bridge between the two scenes which make up the story.

Exactly why it's there, rather than at the end where it used to be.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Nothing here even remotely resembles anything that would be considered a "montage."

The only reason I mentioned the "montage effect" was in pointing out that there'd be several different pictures of the trees - maybe even shot the way you suggest, but presented in the video as simple black-and-white stills (changing every time the word "trees" was said). But it's the question of repetition that I was talking about, not what the word "montage" means or suggests.

Interesting ideas for a video of "Apple Montage", George, although I currently have no plans for making one... the montage is a poetic one.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.
Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.
And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).
In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

That's part of the montage effect, right there.

Repetition is a different literary device.

Yes, Poesydragon: "repetition" is not the same thing as "montage". I'm talking about the criticism of the former.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Transliterated to the cinematic medium, your tree sequence would most likely be accomplished via a crane shot. The smoking teens would step out of the shot, shifting the focus to the trees. The camera would dolly out and crane up to reveal increasingly dense rows of trees.

I don't know if this is even worth discussing, but: if I were making a video for this poem, I wouldn't use live action at all. I'd present it as a series of black-and-white still photos. That's what's suggested by the title, and that's how I mentally see the poem's events.

Post by Michael Pendragon
In terms of the narrative, the tree sequence serves as a bridge between the two scenes which make up the story.

Exactly why it's there, rather than at the end where it used to be.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Nothing here even remotely resembles anything that would be considered a "montage."

The only reason I mentioned the "montage effect" was in pointing out that there'd be several different pictures of the trees - maybe even shot the way you suggest, but presented in the video as simple black-and-white stills (changing every time the word "trees" was said). But it's the question of repetition that I was talking about, not what the word "montage" means or suggests.

Interesting ideas for a video of "Apple Montage", George, although I currently have no plans for making one... the montage is a poetic one.

But you really should, Will.

That way there will actually be an apple montage connected to your poem.

[Will Dockery]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

OK, well, since it's too late to reply to the other thread, much less find the right post, I'd like to comment on one negative criticism: that a poet should not keep using the same words over and over in a poem, but should vary it up. I've received that criticism for The Conjuror, and you did for "trees" here.
Which is perfectly fine as a default rule. In fact, though, repetition is a powerful tool, even more powerful than perfect rhyme. Which does not invalidate the default rule: if you repeat too many words, the poem just sounds boring. (Remember PJ's "sing" poem?). So at most it should be restricted to 1, 2, or just possibly 3 words in a single poem.
And of course it has to be used to say something. I think it was you who pointed out that the repetition in "The Conjurer" made it read like the formula of a spell (which was my idea).
In Apple Montage, the repetition of "trees" gave me a vivid picture of how backwoods the community was: looking outward from the community, all that was visible was one field, and then trees and trees and trees (to my mind, as far as the eye could see).

That's part of the montage effect, right there.

Repetition is a different literary device.

Yes, Poesydragon: "repetition" is not the same thing as "montage". I'm talking about the criticism of the former.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Transliterated to the cinematic medium, your tree sequence would most likely be accomplished via a crane shot. The smoking teens would step out of the shot, shifting the focus to the trees. The camera would dolly out and crane up to reveal increasingly dense rows of trees.

I don't know if this is even worth discussing, but: if I were making a video for this poem, I wouldn't use live action at all. I'd present it as a series of black-and-white still photos. That's what's suggested by the title, and that's how I mentally see the poem's events.

Post by Michael Pendragon
In terms of the narrative, the tree sequence serves as a bridge between the two scenes which make up the story.

Exactly why it's there, rather than at the end where it used to be.

Post by Michael Pendragon
Nothing here even remotely resembles anything that would be considered a "montage."

The only reason I mentioned the "montage effect" was in pointing out that there'd be several different pictures of the trees - maybe even shot the way you suggest, but presented in the video as simple black-and-white stills (changing every time the word "trees" was said). But it's the question of repetition that I was talking about, not what the word "montage" means or suggests.

Interesting ideas for a video of "Apple Montage", George, although I currently have no plans for making one... the montage is a poetic one.

But you really should, Will.
That way there will actually be an apple montage connected to your poem.

You mean a visual, film style montage, which isn't a bad idea, really.

[Will Dockery]

Exactly, George.

I'll expound later, the talent show beckons.

😀

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 2 May 2018 17:57:05 -0700 (PDT),

Post by Will Dockery
Exactly, George.
I'll expound later, the talent show beckons.

Who won the talent show?

(I already know who came last.)

[Will Dockery]

Blue Light Special, indeed.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Then why is good sarcasm so funny?

:)

[Will Dockery]

It isn't my fault that you lack the sense of humor to know a joke when you see one, Brooke.

But a troll so full of hate as you can't really be expected to have a sense of humor, Brooke.

😀

[Will Dockery]

If you read the poem carefully and visualize words as images, you will find the montage.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

How about the verbs? If you read carefully, will you be able to find the verbs?

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
How about the verbs? If you read carefully, will you be able to find the verbs?

Really?

Not a single verb in the entire poem?

[h***@gmail.com]

I didn't say that, did I? Can you respond in such a way
as to suggest that you understand what I actually did say?

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
I didn't say that, did I? Can you respond in such a way
as to suggest that you understand what I actually did say?

You wrote:

"How about the verbs? If you read carefully, will you be able to find the verbs?"

And so I responded appropriately.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
How about the verbs? If you read carefully, will you be able to find the verbs?

Okay, how about you carefully read it and get back to me with your findings, Dr. Corey?

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
If you read the poem carefully and visualize words as images, you will find the montage.

If you visualize the words of any piece of descriptive writing as images, you will find the same type of "montage."

But a visualized montage exists inside your head -- not in the poem.

Nor does the poem create this montage; rather, you are imposing the task of visualization upon the reader (as set forth in your directions to me, immediately above).

***
So, as I'd stated earlier, you are calling the poem a "montage" because when you remember the events depicted in it, you envision a series of memory images.

And, as I have already granted you poetic license to do this, I see no need for you any further whining on your part.

[Will Dockery]

Not saying that I won't make an "Apple Montage" video, just that I have no plans to make one at this point in time.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery
--------------------------------------------
The other thread for this poem is getting so long I want to start a new one specifically for discussion of the poem, which cntinues.
http://alt.arts.poetry.comments.narkive.com/cEgduQLs/apple-montage-will-dockery-ping-george

cool stuff will .

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Will Dockery
Apple Montage
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.
To the right
behind the barn
were apple trees.
There were several
of those trees
and other trees
behind them
beyond a field
and behind them, other trees.
Later, I stood near
as a crowd
watched Pops and my Uncle
cooking apple butter;
stirring the brown gunk,
boiling in a huge black kettle.
I saw my father
secretly pass
a wine bottle
to my Uncle Clarence.
I went from
breathing cold mist
out back behind the barn,
to breathing
the hot misty steam.
The air smelled of apple fumes
and strong booze.
-Will Dockery

cool stuff will .

Thank you, Hilrant... you should feel free to post your poetry and other writings here on the poetry newsgroup.

--
Hilrant
Alternative / singer-songwriter Caerphilly, UK

https://www.reverbnation.com/hilrant

[Will Dockery]

I did quote your text, Doctor Hi.

😀

[h***@gmail.com]

I didn't think so, but thanks for trying.

[Will Dockery]

You don't think what, Corey?

[h***@gmail.com]

I didn't say your poem doesn't have any verbs.
I asked if you could find them if you read carefully.

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
I didn't say your poem doesn't have any verbs.
I asked if you could find them if you read carefully.

Sure, they are verbs, not Easter eggs.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Okay, show me.

[Will Dockery]

You can't see them?

[h***@gmail.com]

Apple Montage

Post by Will Dockery
Sneaking around
with Cousin Jenny,
smoking menthol
beyond the sheds.

What is the verb in that sentence?

Post by Will Dockery
Late summer vacation 1973
in the backwoods of Tennessee.

What is the verb in that sentence?

Thanks for your time and attention.

[Will Dockery]

I'd call "sneaking" and "smoking" close enough .

They're definitely both /action/ words.

😀

[h***@gmail.com]

Do you know what participial phrases are, and how to use them?

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by h***@gmail.com
Do you know what participial phrases are, and how to use them?

How could he? He doesn't even know what a verb is.

[h***@gmail.com]

Okay, so what if he can't distinguish a verb from a participle.
Is it important that writers be able to identify parts of speech?

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by h***@gmail.com
Okay, so what if he can't distinguish a verb from a participle.
Is it important that writers be able to identify parts of speech?

Only if they want to compose sentences.

[NancyGene]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by h***@gmail.com
Okay, so what if he can't distinguish a verb from a participle.
Is it important that writers be able to identify parts of speech?

Only if they want to compose sentences.

Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so that Fat Fuck uses and overuses.

FF must have flunked diagramming sentences.

[Will Dockery]

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more tan a bean counter, NG.

:)

[NancyGene]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more tan a bean counter, NG.
:)

What does "tan a bean counter" mean, Mr. Vocabulary?

[Will Dockery]

Post by NancyGene

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more than a bean counter, NG.

What does "tan a bean counter" mean

It means I accidentally left the h out of "than", spelling lamer.

:)

[drive-by]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more tan a bean counter, NG.
:)

Tan

[NancyGene]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more tan a bean counter, NG.
:)

Tan

Is he being racist?

[drive-by]

Post by NancyGene

Post by Will Dockery

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more tan a bean counter, NG.
:)

Tan

Is he being racist?

No, just ignorant.


I use to love Black and Tans while I was in England...lovely and smooth.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by drive-by

Post by NancyGene

Post by Will Dockery

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more tan a bean counter, NG.
:)

Tan

Is he being racist?

No, just ignorant.
I use to love Black and Tans while I was in England...lovely and smooth.

I used to love Black and Tans when I'd hit bars in Hoboken and Greenwich Village back in the day.

[h***@gmail.com]

I used to drink Black & Browns just to be different.

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
I used to drink Black & Browns just to be different.

Back in my weed smoking days, a Black & Mild made a good blunt case.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

A Black & Brown is Guinness and Newcastle Brown Ale.

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
A Black & Brown is Guinness and Newcastle Brown Ale.

I never liked that heavy beer.

We'd call Guinness "lava lamp" beer.

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by h***@gmail.com
A Black & Brown is Guinness and Newcastle Brown Ale.

Well, that shows how little I know about drinks. I used to just order a Black and Tan with Guinness and Newcastle.

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 9 May 2018 06:42:54 -0700 (PDT),

Post by drive-by

Post by NancyGene

Post by Will Dockery

Post by NancyGene
Real writers know and use more words than the 500 or so

Yet you amount to little more tan a bean counter, NG.
:)

Tan

Is he being racist?

No, just ignorant.
I use to love Black and Tans while I was in England...lovely and smooth.

Well done if you found a barman who (a) knew what you were talking
about and (b) didn't offer to stir it for you.

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
Okay, so what if he can't distinguish a verb from a participle.
Is it important that writers be able to identify parts of speech?

If there's a test coming up soon, sure, bone up on all that.

Meanwhile, a poet mostly just writes down what the Muses hand him, or, as Pendragon just wrote, and Woody Guthrie used tosay... what we can pluck from the thin air.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Meanwhile, a poet glar slocken tag niddle ploof stindley.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
I'd call "sneaking" and "smoking" close enough .
They're definitely both /action/ words.

ROTFLMAO!

[Peter J Ross]

In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 8 May 2018 18:41:26 -0700 (PDT),

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery
I'd call "sneaking" and "smoking" close enough .
They're definitely both /action/ words.

ROTFLMAO!

Were you here a few years ago when Dreckery was challenged to identify
the main verb in a sentence? He dodged the question for a few days,
and then announced that the main verb was what the rest of us would
have called a participle.

Much ROTFLMAO ensued.

[Will Dockery]

Sure, they are verbs, not Easter eggs.

:)

[Will Dockery]

I passed classes with those subjects...

😀

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
I passed classes with those subjects...

You took a class on "verbs"???

Verbs 101?

[Will Dockery]

English and History were always my two best classes.

Science and Math, not so much.

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
English and History were always my two best classes.

A scary thought if ever there was one.

[Will Dockery]

Sometimes I knew more details than The History teacher.

I did you not.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Typo alert:

"Kid" not "did".

:)

[Will Dockery]

Thanks for the splendid scrutiny... and most of all, reading the poem.

😀

[Will Dockery]

Typo alert:

"Than" not "Tan".

Apologies for any confusion.

😀

[Will Dockery]

Of course, not having had a drop of booze or a smoke in over a decade now, my memory of those vices are rather dim.

😀

[Will Dockery]

Looks like a cue for P.J. Ross.

😀