Discussion:
Jesus & Magick: Talmud reference
(too old to reply)
Will Dockery
2003-08-02 17:03:47 UTC
Permalink
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).

[...]

One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera, who apparently had some
influence with his movement, but may have been much more than that; we
simply don't know. Apparently he had enough influence that he became a
political threat; sufficient that he was declared a heretic by a
temple court and was stoned to death and his body hanged from a tree
on the eve of Passover in 88 B.C.E. It is my opinion, though that his
influence didn't die with him. Within a few years, mythmaking began
around this Essene, attributing to him miracles and a resurrection.
Indeed, there are even several first-century Christian references to
this supposed miracle worker.

If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, as some have suggested, his impact on the movement towards
Jewish reform was considerable. And if he was the Teacher of
Righteousness, it would answer a lot of interesting questions, such as
the scattered first century Christian and Talmudic references to a
miracle worker named Jesus ben Pantera. Among them are a quote from
Origen, saying that his arch-rival Celsus had heard from a Jew in
Jerusalem that Jesus Ben Pantera was born of Mary as the result of a
rape by a Roman soldier named Pantera, and had borne the baby in
secret. There may be something to this rumor, which would account for
Mark's obvious embarrassment regarding the origins of Jesus; Mark
never mentions Joseph as the husband of Mary. Note also that it was
both the Roman custom and the custom of the Jews to include a
patrilineal surname as part of a person's full name; yet nowhere in
the New Testament does the surname of Jesus, (or Joseph, for that
matter) appear. Jesus is referred to as Jesus of Nazareth, a
geographical surname that was usually reserved by Jews for illigitmate
children of unknown patrilineage (Romans used the surname of the
father, regardless of the legitimacy of the birth). The Talmud refers
to Jeshu as being the illegitimate son of an adultress named Mary
Magdala. There are numerous rabbinical sources from the early
Christian period which refer to the Jesus of Christian fame as Jesus
ben Pantera. There are several interesting references to a Jeshu ben
Pandera from Nazareth who traveled around and practiced magic during
the reign of Alexander Janneus, who ruled Palestine from 104 to 78
BCE. As these references are Talmudic, and therefore presumably
anti-Christian, scholars have simply dismissed them as referring to
someone else or being fabricated propaganda. But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera, possibly
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
whatnext
2003-08-02 22:00:59 UTC
Permalink
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
[...]
One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera,
If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera, possibly
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Jani
2003-08-02 22:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between catholics,
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people who
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".

Jani
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
[...]
One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera,
If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera, possibly
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
whatnext
2003-08-03 01:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between catholics,
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people who
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
did they get self-righteous and militant. like george w bush.
its one thing to preach xtianity, its another to push xtianity
Post by Jani
Jani
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
[...]
One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera,
If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera, possibly
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Ironywaves
2003-08-03 09:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by whatnext
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between catholics,
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people who
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not understand.
Will
Post by whatnext
did they get self-righteous and militant. like george w bush.
its one thing to preach xtianity, its another to push xtianity
Post by Jani
Jani
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
[...]
One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera,
If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera, possibly
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 10:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not understand.
Will
In reality, you are incapable of explaining anything, since you are
afflicted with the disease of pure ignorance.


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Ironywaves
2003-08-03 10:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not understand.
Will
In reality, you are incapable of explaining anything, since you are
afflicted with the disease of pure ignorance.
So, i proved you wrong, and you resort to these personal attacks, since you
can't go any other way.
Dockery

The Gnostic Jesus, a Gnostic Christianity

Eccl 3:15 That which is has already been, and what is to be has already
been; and God requires an account of what is past”

History has a funny way of repeating itself. As Christianity first began to
grow, spiritual competition began to surface. As Paul, and the other
apostles labored to build up the house of God which was to be the pillar and
ground of the truth, the enemy also labored and bore the first competitor to
the Church, Gnosticism. This was the first heresy that the church had to
contend against.

The old saying what crawls in one generation walks in the next. What we have
emerging and synthesizing within the Church today is no different than
before. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.
Its unfortunate that little attention is given to the early Church after the
apostles. It was at this time that the challenges came into the body that
prompted the church to explain its faith. As it was so it is again,
Gnosticism has arisen in various ways to challenge us and the revealed Word
of God and it is still alive and well in the year 2002. The person of
Christ, the true Christian Gospel is again finding itself being distorted in
the hands of those who think they have a greater revelation.

The original Gnosticism that predated Christianity was a philosophical
system built on Greek philosophy that taught matter was evil and the Spirit
was good. According to the Gnostic world- view, the created order was evil,
inferior, and opposed to the good. God created the first order, but each
successive order was the work of anti-gods, archons, or a demiurges (a
subordinate deity). These spheres are ruled by archons who guard their
spheres by barring the souls who are seeking to ascend from the realm of
darkness and captivity which is below, to the realm of light which is above.
This was done by spiritual knowledge or experience, we identify it today as
enlightenment.

They taught a docetism which promoted a clear separation between the
material and spiritual world. Some of the Christian Gnostics said since
matter was evil God could not really incarnate in a human body He was not
subject to any human experiences or feelings. The Christian form of docetism
taught that Jesus body was not a real body, was really a (spirit) phantom.
he only appeared in human form and only appeared to suffer, it was an
illusion. Thus Jesus could be a pure spiritual being in the midst of an evil
world and not be contaminated by it. Jesus only appeared to have flesh which
denied his genuine humanity. They believed if Christ suffered he could not
be divine, (this was an integral part of Gnosticism) because God cannot
suffer. Instead the Bible says that God descended into sinful matter and
took on human flesh, it was real, this they could not believe. You can see
this error in the cults today when they refuse to believe the Bible teaches
God became a man. And that the resurrection was a spirit body and not the
flesh. The Bible teaches that the body that emerged from the tomb Sunday
morning was the exact same body that went into the tomb except it was
glorified.

The Bible term en sarki in flesh (2 Tim. 3:16) and became flesh (Jn 1:14),
means Jesus is of a complete human nature, 100% humanity. 1 Jn.1:1-4. 1 John
4:2 says, “that every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in
the flesh is of God.” John is writing after the resurrection, he uses the
perfect tense in the Greek language that denotes a past action with
continuing results into the future. Jesus came in the flesh, He rose in the
flesh and is still in the flesh.” Verse 3 then states, “that every spirit
that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of
God.” Those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh are of the anti-Christ
spirit. This is one of the ways to discern a false teacher from a true one.
But there are many other tests needed to be applied.

If Jesus Christ is not presently in a flesh body in heaven then the
integrity of His incarnation has been deprived. Then one would have to
concede that he is no longer incarnate and he has no flesh today, we would
then have no true resurrection, no mediator or high priest. This would mean
that 1 Tim. 2:5 is not true “there is one mediator between God and man, the
MAN Christ Jesus.”.

When you have someone deny this doctrine indirectly such as Creflo Dollar or
Kenneth Copeland who says “Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in
the flesh” (Following the faith of Abraham #01-3001 Audio side 1). Or the
Mormon Brigham Young who says “Adam is our father and God.” (Brigham Young,
Deseret News, 6/16/1873). It is denying Christ was the only God in the
flesh, substituting another creature. This is the denial that John addresses
“ every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is not of God” for it is an exclusive statement to mean Him alone as the
only human who is also God. (Christ having two natures 100% God and 100%
man ). You don’t have to deny it directly, but can take away from this one
time incarnation by adding another.

Then there were others who denied he rose physically like the Jehovah’s
Witnesses do today, or the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research. They
claim he rose as a spirit no longer needing his body.

Biblically He as God came in the flesh and rose in the same flesh, yet it
was transformed to an eternal flesh body, not a spirit one leaving the flesh
behind.

The early church was adamant on this. Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165) said
plainly: “The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which dies.” As
for those who “maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual,
and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these
persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise.” Justin even insisted that
Christ's ascension shows that it is possible “for flesh to ascend into
heaven.” This means that this would include the rapture of which many cults
deny. Tertullian declared the resurrection of the flesh to be the church's
“rule of faith,” saying it “was taught by Christ” and only denied by
heretics. In Against all Heresies Chapt.4. Cerdo, Marcion, Lugan, Apelles It
states” A resurrection of the soul merely does he approve, denying that of
the body.” “He reinstated in heaven His spirit only. This man denies the
resurrection of the flesh.”

Gnosticism is a Greek term which relates to a special kind of privileged
knowledge that is not common to all but to chosen ones. A Gnostic is a
`knowing one'. (Gnosis means to know, we are familiar with the word
agnostic - one who claims not to know). The Gnostics supposedly had
knowledge of God that was exclusive, that another did not have. They
considered themselves superior to the average Christian. The Gnostics taught
that man is composed of body, soul, and spirit. The body and the soul are
man's earthly existence, and evil. Enclosed in the soul, is the spirit a
divine substance of man. This “spirit” is asleep and ignorant; it needs to
be awakened and liberated by this special knowledge. (This teaching is also
found in Caballa.) To the early Christian Gnostic salvation came by
knowledge and experience, not by the Word of God. Those who did not have
this knowledge were associated with ignorance. It was through esoteric truth
they received direct revelation from the Spirit which was more important
than the Word. Instead real spirituality according to the Bible promotes
humility rather than pride.

The Christians had the Scriptures. But Knowing God through a a written book
was considered Head knowledge and insufficient for a spiritual life. The
Gnostics offered experiential knowledge, the deeper things that came from
the spirit.

Pastor Bill Randles in his book Mending the nets puts it this way, “The
Gnostics were impatient with the standard Christian teaching regarding the
knowledge of God. It was just too simple and pedestrian. Good enough for
uneducated peasants, slaves, and the disenfranchised people who made up the
bulk of the Christian converts in the first century (see 1 Cor. 1:25-26),
but orthodox Christianity was far too plain for converted philosophers and
intellectuals!

“Think of it this way. Do you know God? How do you know Him? Have you ever
seen Him? Have you ever heard His audible voice? Have you gotten beyond the
Scriptures into a deeper intimacy with God, or are you still on the level of
“mere head knowledge”? You say you love Jesus, but have you ever seen Him?
Are you still waiting for Him to come and rescue you in some kind of an
escape plan?” (Pastor Bill Randles, Mending the Nets p. 9)

So what does this have to do with today, you may ask? Everything. The New
Age movement which is Gnostic in its origin and mystical in its practice,
has had a tremendous influence on the world and even the church. It’s a
blend of many esoteric methods to discover truth and live a freestyle
spirituality. But it also has its presence in the Church and many are
completely unaware what kind of Christianity they are practicing. They need
the tools to distinguish and identify it.

But the Church has never been an island by itself on this counterfeit
spirituality. It has today, as it once did, come inside the Church. There
are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a
revival.

Writers of the New Testament condemned many of the Gnostic teachings. There
are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a
revival. Paul emphasized a wisdom and knowledge that comes from God and does
not concern itself with idle speculations, angelic visitations, fables, and
a amoral lifestyle (Col. 2:8-23; 1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 2:16-19; Titus 1:10-16).
Paul addresses the Gnostic influences in portions of Colossians as a direct
threat to Christ being our salvation and His being sufficient in all things.
To overcome the indulgences of the flesh The “Colossian Heresy” taught a
false philosophy, which denied the all-sufficiency and pre-eminence of Jesus
Christ (Col. 2:8). When he wrote that “in him dwells All the fullness of the
deity bodily” it was a rebuttal against the Gnostics.

Ethical behavior among the Gnostics were on two ends of the spectrum. Some
tried to separate themselves from all earthly evil in order to avoid
contamination, other Gnostics were libertians. The spiritual knowledge meant
having the freedom to participate in all sorts of indulgences. Since they
had received divine knowledge and were enlightened, it didn't matter how
they lived in the body.

In its place they promoted Judaic Ceremonialism, attached special
significance to the rite of circumcision, with the observance of special
days (Col. 2:16-17). Asceticism which called for harsh treatment of the body
to control its passions (Col. 2:20-23). 1 Tim.4:1-5 the forbidding of meats
and marriage was even then found in early Gnosticism in their ascetic
practices to purify the body. The denial of the flesh went to extremes. The
teaching of demons was developing as well as spirits masquerading as the
spirit of truth communicated to man by offering him superior knowledge
beyond the Scriptures. This can be easily recognized in the new age movement
under its practice of channeling or the old fashion séances. But can we
recognize it when it takes place in the church?

The apostle Paul explains they had revelation from angels (messengers) and
they even went to the extreme and worshipped them (Col. 2:18), as they took
delight in things they had not seen through vain imaginations, receiving
visions that taught them. The Gnostic Carpocrates taught ...“At every sinful
and infamous deed an angel is present, and he who commits it ...addresses
him by his name and says, `O thou angel, I use thy work! O thou Power of
such and such, I perform thy deed!' And this is the perfect knowledge,
unafraid to stray into such actions whose very names are unmentionable.”
(Quoted in Spirit Wars p.174 Peter Jones)

Stories of angelic revelation that counter the word of God makes up a major
portion of new revelation today. When Duplantis went to heaven by an angel
he describes seeing the Father and Jesus “I asked that angel, now, you know,
kind of a dumb question. I said, “Where's the Holy Spirit?” The angel tells
him he’s on earth.

Today people have angels appear and give numerous messages about peoples
future, their ministry even about their city.

We can hear similarities of the early Gnostic pursuits as certain men teach
what will be in the future.

In 1987, “Jesus” promised dramatic angel manifestations were going to
increase in the church to Kenneth Copeland and that many “will have
visitations from the spirit realm.” “Jesus” also told Copeland “A time is
coming when there will be manifestation of angels more than usual, more than
there has been in the past. Many of you are going to witness for yourselves
the angel that has been put in charge and in command of your ministry and
your life. Many of you are going to have visitations from the spirit realm.
Many of you will have divinely appointed visions and dreams... Suddenly, you
will be standing in that [spiritual] country, and suddenly you'll deliver a
message and then suddenly you'll be brought back in your kitchen again. Oh,
I have some outstanding things, saith the Lord. Kenneth Copeland, (“Take
Time to Pray,” Believers Voice of Victory, February 1987, p. 9.)

Rick Joyner states “Angelic appearances will be common to the saints and a
visible glory of the Lord will appear upon some for extended periods of time
as power flows through them” (Rick Joyner, The Harvest, 128-129).

Benny Hinn says a similar thing, “The angels of heaven are about to appear
in visible form…the angels of the Lord are about to invade planet earth and
come to your house and literally open the prison doors like they did with
Peter.” (Benny Hinn Honolulu Blaisdell, Jan.21, 1999).

All this detracts from the uniqueness and sufficiency of Christ (Col. 2:18),
as it shifts the focus off of Christ onto other experiences and other
beings. Paul’s solution was “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly” the
word is the revelation of Him who is our sufficiency, and the Holy Spirit
accompanies the Word He wrote. It is God’s word that we are to know this is
where the power of the Spirit is. There is not need to anticipate
encountering angels when we are focused on Christ, especially receiving
power or revelation from them.

In John’s gospel and in his epistles, he countered heretical teaching that
also included Gnosticism. John concentrates on it the most in his Gospel--
that God actually did become flesh. Every second letter in the Scripture is
to counter a false teaching that has crept in and challenged what was
already taught, so it was necessary to write another letter. I John directly
confronts the Gnostic influence.

This became a serious issue even after the apostles, as we read numerous
refutations of the Gnostics by the early church fathers that were
theologians and apologists. Some of the more important ones are Irenaeus,
Against Heresies; Hippolytus, Refutations of All Heresies; Epiphanius,
Panarion; and Tertullian, Against Marcion. Irenaeus (A.D. 130-200), who had
firsthand experience of Gnostic teaching, called those who blaspheme the
Creator “agents of Satan”( Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.26.2). Hippolytus,
in a graphic description of certain Gnostics who called themselves the
Naasenes (from the Hebrew nahas, “snake”) or Ophites (from the Greek ophis,
“snake”), who were worshipers of the serpent. Because they received secret
knowledge as the serpent offered to them what he offered Eve in Genesis.
Much like the Mormon church teaches today, that the Serpent making man fall
gave him the opportunity to be a god.

Iraneaus took the time to research and read their writings and spoke with
them became their greatest opponent debating them. He wrote, “These men
falsify the oracles of God and prove themselves evil interpreters of the
good word of revelation. They also overthrow the faith of many, by drawing
them away, under a pretense of [superior] knowledge, from Him who rounded
and adorned the universe; as if, forsooth, They had something more excellent
and sublime to reveal, than that God who created the heaven and the earth,
and all things that are therein” (Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1).

This certainly can fit into the genre' of today's Christianity. The Gnostics
thought that one must directly experience the spirit to learn the truth,
this being apart from the word. Stepping over into the supernatural,
experience becomes the teacher and gives them real knowledge. What was and
is now being taught is spirit to spirit communication that is completely
outside the Biblical revelation given by the apostles.

There were many facets to Gnosticism and we can find its echoing sound
inside the churches walls even today.

The Gnostics did not employ the mind. In a video from May 1994, Rodney
Howard-Browne laid hands on a woman and encouraged her to “Step over, step
over, step over, step over into the realm of the supernatural. Step over out
of the realm of reason into the realm of glory.” Another time he said, (“get
out of your minds step over into the realm of the spirit of God.”) This is
an encouragement of Gnosticism. Who would encourage a person not to think
analytically? When you hear to put your mind on hold; ignore reason; step
over into some kind of supernatural realm it is promoting mysticism, and
contradicts everything Scripture teaches about true spiritual knowledge and
discernment. We cannot learn God’s truth without using our mind. We are one
unit this is why we are told to love and worship with all our heart,
strength, mind and soul.

Where can we identify its practices inside the church today? This Gnostic
Jesus was poured out in the new wine by Rodney Browne who began to rise to
prominence in the early 90’s, Benny Hinn inaugurated him at one of his
meetings telling him to release the anointing of laughter on the people.
(the laughter anointing just occurred at Hinn's meeting in Hawaii Jan.11
2002)

For a Gnostic to ascend to commune with the perfect invisible God. Bordering
on the macabre the master would lead the disciple in a prayer-chant of long
vowel sounds and nonsense words: “Zoxathazo a oo ee o0o eee o00o ee
00000000000 00000 uuuuu 000000000000 000 (p.33 Gnostic Empire Strikes Back,
Peter Jones).

The Gospel of the Egyptians, has the imperishable name: “Ie ieus eo ou eo
oua! Really truly, O Yessus Mazareus Yessedekeus, O living water, O child of
the child, O glorious name, really, truly, aion o on, iiii eeee eeee oo oo
uuuu oooo asaa {a}, really, truly, ei aasa oooo, O existing one who sees the
aeons! Really, truly, aee eee iiii uuuuuu ooooooo, who is eternally eternal,
really, truly, iea aio, in the heart, who exists, a aei eis aei, ei o ei, eo
os ei . . . Thou art what Thou art, Thou art who Thou art!” (Nag Hammadi
Library, 204).

In the Kabbala unveiled is a chart with 72 names of angels angel 12 is hho
angel 26 Haa angel 71 Hil --when the name of these deities are combined with
the tettragrammaton in the 4 worlds of the Kabbala. Angel 41 haha angel 62
yaha angel 71 haiai. And when the name of these are spoken they sound very
similar to what was going on in Rodney Browne's services as he preps people
to laugh and has them drink in the new wine. Browne's chant “Fill, ho ho
hehe fill... haha haha hehe fil ho ho fill heha fill huho fill hahha fill
hehe hahahaho.” (ad infinitum) Whether he is aware of this is unknownl, but
it does bring the results desired.

It was this mantra that many learned to repeat in these meetings that made
them incoherent intoxicated from the new wine. The body heat would increase
paralysis would set in much like one experiences in Kundalini yoga. Even in
Kundalini yoga the fifth located in the throat has a sound vibration of HA
(Bernaed Gunther Energy Ecstasy p.22) The guru can touch chakra points on
the forehead and the stomach to pass along the power to the recipient. Is
this all coincidence or are there real powers working through all this? They
certainly have been with the gurus and others into other religions and
spiritual practices.

The Gnostics used allegorical interpretations, spiritualizing literal
meanings in the Scripture. There was an inner and an outer meaning to the
Scripture (such as Rosicrucian's, and Masonry practice). Literal method of
interpretation was abandoned and in its place was hearing and interacting
with the Spirit alone. They received direct revelation from the Spirit which
was supposed to be superior to the Word.

Spirits masquerade as God or Jesus all the time. A Voice that was supposed
to be Jesus spoke to Dr. Helen Schucman, a Jewish atheist and psychologist
in 1965 in A Course in Miracles, that is an illusion, and sin is the
illusion that separates us from our own innate divinity, our own godhood.
This voice said to “Forget your dreams of sin and guilt and come with me,”
the denial of the Cross is evident if there is no sin, Jesus Christ as
Savior becomes meaningless. Echoing the Gnostics her Jesus declares, “It is
impossible to kill the Son of God.”

This spiritual knowledge was revelation that brought salvation to the
Gnostics. K. Copeland states “The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said,
“Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip
you up.' He said, 'Think this way--a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own
domain.' And I threw my Bible down...like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A
born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.'
He said, 'You are the very image, the very copy of that one.' I said,
'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on in
there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I
could have done the same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the
knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing,
cause you're a reborn man too.” (K. Copeland, Substitution and
Identification, K. Copeland Ministries, 1989, audiotape #00- 0202, Side B)

Notice God is saying if you had the same knowledge you could have defeated
Satan in hell. It wasn’t that Jesus was the chosen one, the Christ, but that
we all are what he is, we just need this knowledge and we can do all that he
can. This was exactly what the Gnostics taught in the early church.

Benny Hinn who is the ultimate example of Gnosticism with a Christian
covering explains his new revelation knowledge” on the “rebirth” of Christ
in hell: “My, you know, whoosh! The Holy Ghost is just showing me some
stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth-it’s, it’s just heavy
right now on me…He’s [referring to Jesus] in the underworld now. God isn’t
there, the Holy Ghost isn’t there, and the Bible says He was begotten. Do
you know what the word begotten means? It means reborn. Do you want another
shocker? Have you been begotten? So was He. Don’t let anyone deceive you.
Jesus was reborn. You say, ‘What are you talking about?’ He was reborn. He
had to be reborn, If He was not reborn, I could not be reborn, Jesus was
born again.” (Benny Hinn, Our Position ‘In Christ,’ Part 1, Orlando
Christian Center, FL. 1991), videotape #TV-254.)

Notice he says don't let anyone deceive you, insinuating this is absolute
truth. Jesus was reborn just as we were. This is crucial, was Jesus reborn
when only sinners need to be reborn again. Because ones spirit that is dead
to God and they have no relationship with him there is the necessity to have
the new birth. There are literally hundreds of examples such as this one in
Hinn’s ministry. Hinn's ministry is operational by Gnostic type revelations
of “God said”, “the spirit showed me.”

In a similar fashion to the word faith teaching the Gospel of Thomas, begins
by saying: “These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and
which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down . . . Whoever finds the interpretation
of these sayings will not experience death." In other words if you really
know these words, then no sickness or death will befall you. This extreme
can be found in the latter rain teachings as some have taught they will
become immortal

Today we have a new gnostic awakening that is taking place all over the
Christian Church!! It is being called various names such as “revival”,
“renewal”, even “transformation”, “the power of God” but it is far removed
Scripture and no different than the Gnostic doctrine once practiced early
on. We need to comprehend the extent of this gnostic influence today: Seeing
it for what it is will help you withstand the deception that is now taking
place. But you must see it for what it is or you will be carried away by it.
I do not see any more middle ground on this issue, it will increase even
more.

In the Gnostic view of spirituality has man ascending to different levels,
which it fostered a spiritual superiority through receiving visions,
revelations, communications with angels, insight by God speaking directly
and giving unknown doctrines; regularly in long conversations with its
participants and giving doctrines that are not found in the Scripture.

We have heard the argument that “the man with an experience is never at the
mercy of a man with an argument” This is what we are confronted in
Mormonism, no matter what objective proof is shown to a Mormon, they rely on
their subjective “burning in the bosom” experience and ignore what the Bible
states as objective truth. Beliefs and systems of thought came from personal
experience but this does not mean they are from God or of the truth.

For those who have begun to practice their Christianity like this, it
becomes very difficult to make sense to them why it is wrong. Because they
cannot understand the truth from the word, they are unable, incapable to
read or hear the word in its correct interpretation, its always outside the
Biblical context and meaning. It means only what they want it to mean and
that is subject to change at their own whim. Instead they have trained
themselves to look to an experience and feelings to validate what they
perceive as the truth. They can no longer follow logic through to its
conclusion because they are not intellectually attentive, and the words that
we are familiar with do not mean the same thing to them.

Today we are told that we are going into higher levels by numerous movers
and shakers of the new wave of the spirit: having Christ and his spirit is
not enough one must come into greater experiences of the spirit to be with
what is happening in the new thing. Normal worship is not enough, there must
be power to shake the heavenlies and destroy Satan's strongholds. We must
come to a new level to have power to do signs and wonders. This is Gnostic
talk. Levels were never associated with Christianity but they were of
Gnosticism. There is no one who has these levels incorporated into their
theological position than Rick Joyner who speaks of levels of anointing. He
believes the church is moving into a “new level”. he explains, “There will
be a. special anointing present for commissioning, confirming commission,
imparting spiritual gifts, and stirring up again spiritual gift that have
been dormant for a time,” 'There will be a special anointing released for
mobilizing the army of the Lord.” and 'There will be an impartation of
strategic vision ... to boldly march against the greatest strongholds of our
time ... This army of which Joel speaks is about to be revealed ... They
will take cities. They will burst through the enemy's strongholds and take
houses (families). The very heavens and the earth are about to shake because
of this great army ... the time has come.” (The Morning Star, Prophetic
Bulletin, August 1994)

In his the book the Final Quest which is all about his vision Joyner
describes himself ascending the multilevel Holy Mountain, above lower
‘levels' of truth with which other Christians are content with such as
Salvation,” “Sanctification,” “Prayer,” “Faith,” etc. these are the lower
levels. As he climbs, the mountain he learns new truths, gets new weapons
and is at a greater vantage point to kill the Vultures and other demonic
creatures that are coming after him.

He even meets an angel called WISDOM, who teaches him to rise to the third
heaven and this angel we later find is Jesus.

“Wisdom” which is “Sophia” the Greek word for wisdom was adored by some,
and the church of Santa Sophia (Holy Wisdom) was built in Constantinople in
the 6th century.

Remembering that the Gnostic ascent is to discover the Christ-spirit within,
read this quote from the book the Vision. Where wisdom tell Rick Joyner “You
are still lacking something very important. You must yet have a great
revelation of the King. Even though you have climbed to the top of the
mountain, and received from every truth along the way, and even though you
have stood in the Garden of God, tasted of His unconditional love, and have
seen His Son many times now, you still only understand a part of the whole
counsel of God, and that only superficially.”

“The Lord dwells within you. You have taught this many times, but now you
must live it, for you have eaten of the Tree of Life.” The angel then began
to lead me back to the gate [out of the Garden of Paradise]. I protested
that I did not want to leave. Looking surprised, the angel took me by the
shoulders and looked me in the eyes. That is when I recognized him as the
angel, Wisdom. “You never have to leave this garden. This garden is in your
heart because the Creator Himself is within you.”

On p.43 “I then looked past him to the Tree of Life. I had a compulsion to
grab all of the fruit that I could before leaving. Knowing my thoughts,
Wisdom gently shook me. “No. Even this fruit, gathered in fear, would go
bad. This fruit and this tree are within you because He is in you. You must
believe.”

Yet the Word of God tells us another story. It says that, with the Holy
Spirit as our Guide not an angel who reveals secrets we can know what God
has revealed through His Word. We do not need to discover inner wisdom by
some esoteric route. Climbing up levels of knowledge to have greater
revelations. So what are we to make of all this?

In the Gnostic Empire Strikes back by Peter Jones a Christian refuting the
Gnostic teaching he says this “experience is the way to perfection and
knowledge. Gnostic believers are “saved” when they realize who they are-a
part of the divine; possessing within themselves the kingdom; capable of
anything; and untrammeled by human traditions, creational structures, or
divine laws. p.26.

Theosophist and Anti Christian Joseph Campbell, in The Power of Myth,
explains the ascension to mean that Christ “has gone inward . . . to the
kingdom of heaven within. (Douglas R. Groothuis, “The Shamanized Jesus,”
Christianity Today, April 29, 1991, 20.)

There is a fine line between the truth and error in all this. If truth is to
be found within, it can be found anywhere, so long as it agrees with the
subjective experience of a Gnostic.

Irenaeus observed: “they adduce an untold multitude of apocryphal and
spurious writings, which they have composed.”

Some of the Gnostic documents are Letter to Rheginus, Treatise on the Three
Natures, Apocalypse of Adam, the Gospel of Matthias, Acts of Peter, and Acts
of Thomas. The Apocryphon of James, The Acts of Peter, the twelve apostles,
the treatise on the resurrection, three editions of the Apocryphon of John
with the creation story reinterpreted. In the early church there were
so-called infancy gospels that were written to fill in the details of the
early unrecorded years of the life of Christ. “The Birth of Mary,” a work
written in the middle of the second century; “The Protoevangelium of James,”
written about the same time; the first “Gospel of Infancy,” composed about
A.D. 400; which narrates the birth of Mary to innocents. Theses were stories
circulating at the beginning of the second century all the way through the
fifth century. These works include stories of Jesus forming clay figures of
animals and birds which He makes walk, fly, and eat. Another account has a
child who runs into Jesus falls down dead. These examples and representative
of the fanciful nature of the accounts. It has been proven that Muslims have
taken these stories from these apocryphal writings.

It was the apostle Paul who warned in Galatians chapter 1 “if we or angel
from heaven brings any other gospel, they are accursed. Notice that he
includes he himself among the “we” as the apostles, making the point that
anyone can find themselves removed from the truth if they do not hold fast
to the truth. They, the apostles held themselves to a higher standard. So
even a witness of Christ in the early church can be subject to this.

There were three categories of writings in the early centuries the Greek
words were Homologumena, Antilogumena, Notha.

Homologumena = all books accepted by the entire church east and west.

Antilogumena= books accepted by some of the church these were disputed books
because they were not familiar with them, but they were accepted later.

Notha= writings claiming inspiration but were false. There were false books
circulating by authors who claimed to be an apostle or penned an apostles
name to them. Many of them were Gnostics, they were considered false because
it contradicted the writings previously delivered. They as the church had to
make judgments on so-called writings. Today its no different we have to make
judgments; except these are in books, tapes, videos and crusades. All these
are to be compared to what is already delivered.

We're to discern and recognize who are true teachers and false teachers ...
Believers are to use discernment -it’s a command and if you are not looking
to discern, your being disobedient. We don’t make a judgment on the power or
experiences they give, but by what they teach.

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain18.htm
thomas_blood
2003-08-03 14:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not understand.
Will
In reality, you are incapable of explaining anything, since you are
afflicted with the disease of pure ignorance.
we're not piad to listen to your babling idiocy. shut up.

thomas_blood
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 18:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not understand.
Will
In reality, you are incapable of explaining anything, since you are
afflicted with the disease of pure ignorance.
we're not piad to listen to your babling idiocy.
I suppose you are paid to babble idiotically, since that is all you
are capable of doing.




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Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 23:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
I suppose you are paid to babble idiotically, since that is all you
are capable of doing.
yeah, so what's yer point?
Ah, but it wasn't my point. It was yours. Do you always accuse
others of attacking you when you attack them?

What would Jesus do?


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zayton
2003-08-04 04:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
I suppose you are paid to babble idiotically, since that is all
you
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
are capable of doing.
yeah, so what's yer point?
Ah, but it wasn't my point. It was yours. Do you always accuse
others of attacking you when you attack them?
What would Jesus do?
Um....Mary Magdalene?


Joe
(Nobody told me there was gonna be a test today)
Ironywaves
2003-08-04 05:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not understand.
Will
In reality, you are incapable of explaining anything, since you
are
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
afflicted with the disease of pure ignorance.
we're not piad to listen to your babling idiocy.
I suppose you are paid to babble idiotically, since that is all you
are capable of doing.
Plenty of babble from your side, as well, Maxie... you "insiste" on it.
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 05:37:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not
understand.
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Will
In reality, you are incapable of explaining anything, since you
are
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
afflicted with the disease of pure ignorance.
we're not piad to listen to your babling idiocy.
I suppose you are paid to babble idiotically, since that is all you
are capable of doing.
Plenty of babble from your side, as well, Maxie... you "insiste" on it.
Dockery
Ah a spelling flamee. I'm going to spell like liteage1 just to get
your goate.


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Plenty of babble from your side, as well, Maxie... you "insiste" on
it.
Post by Ironywaves
Dockery
Ah a spelling flamee. I'm going to spell like liteage1 just to get
your goate.
No, not my goat!!!
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 06:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Plenty of babble from your side, as well, Maxie... you "insiste" on
it.
Post by Ironywaves
Dockery
Ah a spelling flamee. I'm going to spell like liteage1 just to get
your goate.
No, not my goat!!!
Dockery
You're such an ass. :)


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Plenty of babble from your side, as well, Maxie... you "insiste"
on
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
it.
Post by Ironywaves
Dockery
Ah a spelling flamee. I'm going to spell like liteage1 just to
get
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
your goate.
No, not my goat!!!
Dockery
You're such an ass. :)
Maxie, I didn't think you cared.
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 06:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Plenty of babble from your side, as well, Maxie... you
"insiste"
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
on
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
it.
Post by Ironywaves
Dockery
Ah a spelling flamee. I'm going to spell like liteage1 just to
get
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
your goate.
No, not my goat!!!
Dockery
You're such an ass. :)
Maxie, I didn't think you cared.
Dockery
I don't. I'm too busy correcting you.


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Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 07:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Maxie, I didn't think you cared.
Dockery
I don't. I'm too busy correcting you.
Keep up the great work! I have a novel that needs an editor...
wanna gave a
got at it?
Dockery
Touche.


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zayton
2003-08-04 04:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus was NOT a Christian. I can explain if you do not understand.
Will
In reality, you are incapable of explaining anything, since you are
afflicted with the disease of pure ignorance.
In Will's defense, his ignorance is anything but pure.

Hmmmmmm.............That didn't exactly come out as a defense, did it?

Joe
Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by zayton
In Will's defense, his ignorance is anything but pure.
Hmmmmmm.............That didn't exactly come out as a defense, did it?
Joe

Close enough, Joe... I reckon... *grin*
Dockery
Ironywaves
2003-08-03 09:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between catholics,
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people who
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
Jani

Jesus Christ wasn't even a "Christian". All that came later... he's a
Shaman
Kickboxer and does Magick often. I think it is time for a new label
for
those who like Jesus but don't care for the trappings of hundreds of
years
of "Christianity". Brenda [and many others] are onto something good.
Pagans
were "country folk", where all the best ideas come from.
Dockery

http://willdockery0.tripod.com
Post by Jani
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
[...]
One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera,
If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera, possibly
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 10:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between
catholics,
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people who
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
Jani
Jesus Christ wasn't even a "Christian". All that came later...
Wrong again, and you've offered *ZERO* evidence for your claims, as
usual.


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Ironywaves
2003-08-03 10:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Wrong again, and you've offered *ZERO* evidence for your claims, as
usual.
Zero..? You know I can't write about him... *grin*
Dockery

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain18.htm

The Gnostic Jesus, a Gnostic Christianity

Eccl 3:15 That which is has already been, and what is to be has already
been; and God requires an account of what is past”

History has a funny way of repeating itself. As Christianity first began to
grow, spiritual competition began to surface. As Paul, and the other
apostles labored to build up the house of God which was to be the pillar and
ground of the truth, the enemy also labored and bore the first competitor to
the Church, Gnosticism. This was the first heresy that the church had to
contend against.

The old saying what crawls in one generation walks in the next. What we have
emerging and synthesizing within the Church today is no different than
before. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.
Its unfortunate that little attention is given to the early Church after the
apostles. It was at this time that the challenges came into the body that
prompted the church to explain its faith. As it was so it is again,
Gnosticism has arisen in various ways to challenge us and the revealed Word
of God and it is still alive and well in the year 2002. The person of
Christ, the true Christian Gospel is again finding itself being distorted in
the hands of those who think they have a greater revelation.

The original Gnosticism that predated Christianity was a philosophical
system built on Greek philosophy that taught matter was evil and the Spirit
was good. According to the Gnostic world- view, the created order was evil,
inferior, and opposed to the good. God created the first order, but each
successive order was the work of anti-gods, archons, or a demiurges (a
subordinate deity). These spheres are ruled by archons who guard their
spheres by barring the souls who are seeking to ascend from the realm of
darkness and captivity which is below, to the realm of light which is above.
This was done by spiritual knowledge or experience, we identify it today as
enlightenment.

They taught a docetism which promoted a clear separation between the
material and spiritual world. Some of the Christian Gnostics said since
matter was evil God could not really incarnate in a human body He was not
subject to any human experiences or feelings. The Christian form of docetism
taught that Jesus body was not a real body, was really a (spirit) phantom.
he only appeared in human form and only appeared to suffer, it was an
illusion. Thus Jesus could be a pure spiritual being in the midst of an evil
world and not be contaminated by it. Jesus only appeared to have flesh which
denied his genuine humanity. They believed if Christ suffered he could not
be divine, (this was an integral part of Gnosticism) because God cannot
suffer. Instead the Bible says that God descended into sinful matter and
took on human flesh, it was real, this they could not believe. You can see
this error in the cults today when they refuse to believe the Bible teaches
God became a man. And that the resurrection was a spirit body and not the
flesh. The Bible teaches that the body that emerged from the tomb Sunday
morning was the exact same body that went into the tomb except it was
glorified.

The Bible term en sarki in flesh (2 Tim. 3:16) and became flesh (Jn 1:14),
means Jesus is of a complete human nature, 100% humanity. 1 Jn.1:1-4. 1 John
4:2 says, “that every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in
the flesh is of God.” John is writing after the resurrection, he uses the
perfect tense in the Greek language that denotes a past action with
continuing results into the future. Jesus came in the flesh, He rose in the
flesh and is still in the flesh.” Verse 3 then states, “that every spirit
that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of
God.” Those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh are of the anti-Christ
spirit. This is one of the ways to discern a false teacher from a true one.
But there are many other tests needed to be applied.

If Jesus Christ is not presently in a flesh body in heaven then the
integrity of His incarnation has been deprived. Then one would have to
concede that he is no longer incarnate and he has no flesh today, we would
then have no true resurrection, no mediator or high priest. This would mean
that 1 Tim. 2:5 is not true “there is one mediator between God and man, the
MAN Christ Jesus.”.

When you have someone deny this doctrine indirectly such as Creflo Dollar or
Kenneth Copeland who says “Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in
the flesh” (Following the faith of Abraham #01-3001 Audio side 1). Or the
Mormon Brigham Young who says “Adam is our father and God.” (Brigham Young,
Deseret News, 6/16/1873). It is denying Christ was the only God in the
flesh, substituting another creature. This is the denial that John addresses
“ every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is not of God” for it is an exclusive statement to mean Him alone as the
only human who is also God. (Christ having two natures 100% God and 100%
man ). You don’t have to deny it directly, but can take away from this one
time incarnation by adding another.

Then there were others who denied he rose physically like the Jehovah’s
Witnesses do today, or the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research. They
claim he rose as a spirit no longer needing his body.

Biblically He as God came in the flesh and rose in the same flesh, yet it
was transformed to an eternal flesh body, not a spirit one leaving the flesh
behind.

The early church was adamant on this. Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165) said
plainly: “The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which dies.” As
for those who “maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual,
and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these
persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise.” Justin even insisted that
Christ's ascension shows that it is possible “for flesh to ascend into
heaven.” This means that this would include the rapture of which many cults
deny. Tertullian declared the resurrection of the flesh to be the church's
“rule of faith,” saying it “was taught by Christ” and only denied by
heretics. In Against all Heresies Chapt.4. Cerdo, Marcion, Lugan, Apelles It
states” A resurrection of the soul merely does he approve, denying that of
the body.” “He reinstated in heaven His spirit only. This man denies the
resurrection of the flesh.”

Gnosticism is a Greek term which relates to a special kind of privileged
knowledge that is not common to all but to chosen ones. A Gnostic is a
`knowing one'. (Gnosis means to know, we are familiar with the word
agnostic - one who claims not to know). The Gnostics supposedly had
knowledge of God that was exclusive, that another did not have. They
considered themselves superior to the average Christian. The Gnostics taught
that man is composed of body, soul, and spirit. The body and the soul are
man's earthly existence, and evil. Enclosed in the soul, is the spirit a
divine substance of man. This “spirit” is asleep and ignorant; it needs to
be awakened and liberated by this special knowledge. (This teaching is also
found in Caballa.) To the early Christian Gnostic salvation came by
knowledge and experience, not by the Word of God. Those who did not have
this knowledge were associated with ignorance. It was through esoteric truth
they received direct revelation from the Spirit which was more important
than the Word. Instead real spirituality according to the Bible promotes
humility rather than pride.

The Christians had the Scriptures. But Knowing God through a a written book
was considered Head knowledge and insufficient for a spiritual life. The
Gnostics offered experiential knowledge, the deeper things that came from
the spirit.

Pastor Bill Randles in his book Mending the nets puts it this way, “The
Gnostics were impatient with the standard Christian teaching regarding the
knowledge of God. It was just too simple and pedestrian. Good enough for
uneducated peasants, slaves, and the disenfranchised people who made up the
bulk of the Christian converts in the first century (see 1 Cor. 1:25-26),
but orthodox Christianity was far too plain for converted philosophers and
intellectuals!

“Think of it this way. Do you know God? How do you know Him? Have you ever
seen Him? Have you ever heard His audible voice? Have you gotten beyond the
Scriptures into a deeper intimacy with God, or are you still on the level of
“mere head knowledge”? You say you love Jesus, but have you ever seen Him?
Are you still waiting for Him to come and rescue you in some kind of an
escape plan?” (Pastor Bill Randles, Mending the Nets p. 9)

So what does this have to do with today, you may ask? Everything. The New
Age movement which is Gnostic in its origin and mystical in its practice,
has had a tremendous influence on the world and even the church. It’s a
blend of many esoteric methods to discover truth and live a freestyle
spirituality. But it also has its presence in the Church and many are
completely unaware what kind of Christianity they are practicing. They need
the tools to distinguish and identify it.

But the Church has never been an island by itself on this counterfeit
spirituality. It has today, as it once did, come inside the Church. There
are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a
revival.

Writers of the New Testament condemned many of the Gnostic teachings. There
are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a
revival. Paul emphasized a wisdom and knowledge that comes from God and does
not concern itself with idle speculations, angelic visitations, fables, and
a amoral lifestyle (Col. 2:8-23; 1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 2:16-19; Titus 1:10-16).
Paul addresses the Gnostic influences in portions of Colossians as a direct
threat to Christ being our salvation and His being sufficient in all things.
To overcome the indulgences of the flesh The “Colossian Heresy” taught a
false philosophy, which denied the all-sufficiency and pre-eminence of Jesus
Christ (Col. 2:8). When he wrote that “in him dwells All the fullness of the
deity bodily” it was a rebuttal against the Gnostics.

Ethical behavior among the Gnostics were on two ends of the spectrum. Some
tried to separate themselves from all earthly evil in order to avoid
contamination, other Gnostics were libertians. The spiritual knowledge meant
having the freedom to participate in all sorts of indulgences. Since they
had received divine knowledge and were enlightened, it didn't matter how
they lived in the body.

In its place they promoted Judaic Ceremonialism, attached special
significance to the rite of circumcision, with the observance of special
days (Col. 2:16-17). Asceticism which called for harsh treatment of the body
to control its passions (Col. 2:20-23). 1 Tim.4:1-5 the forbidding of meats
and marriage was even then found in early Gnosticism in their ascetic
practices to purify the body. The denial of the flesh went to extremes. The
teaching of demons was developing as well as spirits masquerading as the
spirit of truth communicated to man by offering him superior knowledge
beyond the Scriptures. This can be easily recognized in the new age movement
under its practice of channeling or the old fashion séances. But can we
recognize it when it takes place in the church?

The apostle Paul explains they had revelation from angels (messengers) and
they even went to the extreme and worshipped them (Col. 2:18), as they took
delight in things they had not seen through vain imaginations, receiving
visions that taught them. The Gnostic Carpocrates taught ...“At every sinful
and infamous deed an angel is present, and he who commits it ...addresses
him by his name and says, `O thou angel, I use thy work! O thou Power of
such and such, I perform thy deed!' And this is the perfect knowledge,
unafraid to stray into such actions whose very names are unmentionable.”
(Quoted in Spirit Wars p.174 Peter Jones)

Stories of angelic revelation that counter the word of God makes up a major
portion of new revelation today. When Duplantis went to heaven by an angel
he describes seeing the Father and Jesus “I asked that angel, now, you know,
kind of a dumb question. I said, “Where's the Holy Spirit?” The angel tells
him he’s on earth.

Today people have angels appear and give numerous messages about peoples
future, their ministry even about their city.

We can hear similarities of the early Gnostic pursuits as certain men teach
what will be in the future.

In 1987, “Jesus” promised dramatic angel manifestations were going to
increase in the church to Kenneth Copeland and that many “will have
visitations from the spirit realm.” “Jesus” also told Copeland “A time is
coming when there will be manifestation of angels more than usual, more than
there has been in the past. Many of you are going to witness for yourselves
the angel that has been put in charge and in command of your ministry and
your life. Many of you are going to have visitations from the spirit realm.
Many of you will have divinely appointed visions and dreams... Suddenly, you
will be standing in that [spiritual] country, and suddenly you'll deliver a
message and then suddenly you'll be brought back in your kitchen again. Oh,
I have some outstanding things, saith the Lord. Kenneth Copeland, (“Take
Time to Pray,” Believers Voice of Victory, February 1987, p. 9.)

Rick Joyner states “Angelic appearances will be common to the saints and a
visible glory of the Lord will appear upon some for extended periods of time
as power flows through them” (Rick Joyner, The Harvest, 128-129).

Benny Hinn says a similar thing, “The angels of heaven are about to appear
in visible form…the angels of the Lord are about to invade planet earth and
come to your house and literally open the prison doors like they did with
Peter.” (Benny Hinn Honolulu Blaisdell, Jan.21, 1999).

All this detracts from the uniqueness and sufficiency of Christ (Col. 2:18),
as it shifts the focus off of Christ onto other experiences and other
beings. Paul’s solution was “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly” the
word is the revelation of Him who is our sufficiency, and the Holy Spirit
accompanies the Word He wrote. It is God’s word that we are to know this is
where the power of the Spirit is. There is not need to anticipate
encountering angels when we are focused on Christ, especially receiving
power or revelation from them.

In John’s gospel and in his epistles, he countered heretical teaching that
also included Gnosticism. John concentrates on it the most in his Gospel--
that God actually did become flesh. Every second letter in the Scripture is
to counter a false teaching that has crept in and challenged what was
already taught, so it was necessary to write another letter. I John directly
confronts the Gnostic influence.

This became a serious issue even after the apostles, as we read numerous
refutations of the Gnostics by the early church fathers that were
theologians and apologists. Some of the more important ones are Irenaeus,
Against Heresies; Hippolytus, Refutations of All Heresies; Epiphanius,
Panarion; and Tertullian, Against Marcion. Irenaeus (A.D. 130-200), who had
firsthand experience of Gnostic teaching, called those who blaspheme the
Creator “agents of Satan”( Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.26.2). Hippolytus,
in a graphic description of certain Gnostics who called themselves the
Naasenes (from the Hebrew nahas, “snake”) or Ophites (from the Greek ophis,
“snake”), who were worshipers of the serpent. Because they received secret
knowledge as the serpent offered to them what he offered Eve in Genesis.
Much like the Mormon church teaches today, that the Serpent making man fall
gave him the opportunity to be a god.

Iraneaus took the time to research and read their writings and spoke with
them became their greatest opponent debating them. He wrote, “These men
falsify the oracles of God and prove themselves evil interpreters of the
good word of revelation. They also overthrow the faith of many, by drawing
them away, under a pretense of [superior] knowledge, from Him who rounded
and adorned the universe; as if, forsooth, They had something more excellent
and sublime to reveal, than that God who created the heaven and the earth,
and all things that are therein” (Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1).

This certainly can fit into the genre' of today's Christianity. The Gnostics
thought that one must directly experience the spirit to learn the truth,
this being apart from the word. Stepping over into the supernatural,
experience becomes the teacher and gives them real knowledge. What was and
is now being taught is spirit to spirit communication that is completely
outside the Biblical revelation given by the apostles.

There were many facets to Gnosticism and we can find its echoing sound
inside the churches walls even today.

The Gnostics did not employ the mind. In a video from May 1994, Rodney
Howard-Browne laid hands on a woman and encouraged her to “Step over, step
over, step over, step over into the realm of the supernatural. Step over out
of the realm of reason into the realm of glory.” Another time he said, (“get
out of your minds step over into the realm of the spirit of God.”) This is
an encouragement of Gnosticism. Who would encourage a person not to think
analytically? When you hear to put your mind on hold; ignore reason; step
over into some kind of supernatural realm it is promoting mysticism, and
contradicts everything Scripture teaches about true spiritual knowledge and
discernment. We cannot learn God’s truth without using our mind. We are one
unit this is why we are told to love and worship with all our heart,
strength, mind and soul.

Where can we identify its practices inside the church today? This Gnostic
Jesus was poured out in the new wine by Rodney Browne who began to rise to
prominence in the early 90’s, Benny Hinn inaugurated him at one of his
meetings telling him to release the anointing of laughter on the people.
(the laughter anointing just occurred at Hinn's meeting in Hawaii Jan.11
2002)

For a Gnostic to ascend to commune with the perfect invisible God. Bordering
on the macabre the master would lead the disciple in a prayer-chant of long
vowel sounds and nonsense words: “Zoxathazo a oo ee o0o eee o00o ee
00000000000 00000 uuuuu 000000000000 000 (p.33 Gnostic Empire Strikes Back,
Peter Jones).

The Gospel of the Egyptians, has the imperishable name: “Ie ieus eo ou eo
oua! Really truly, O Yessus Mazareus Yessedekeus, O living water, O child of
the child, O glorious name, really, truly, aion o on, iiii eeee eeee oo oo
uuuu oooo asaa {a}, really, truly, ei aasa oooo, O existing one who sees the
aeons! Really, truly, aee eee iiii uuuuuu ooooooo, who is eternally eternal,
really, truly, iea aio, in the heart, who exists, a aei eis aei, ei o ei, eo
os ei . . . Thou art what Thou art, Thou art who Thou art!” (Nag Hammadi
Library, 204).

In the Kabbala unveiled is a chart with 72 names of angels angel 12 is hho
angel 26 Haa angel 71 Hil --when the name of these deities are combined with
the tettragrammaton in the 4 worlds of the Kabbala. Angel 41 haha angel 62
yaha angel 71 haiai. And when the name of these are spoken they sound very
similar to what was going on in Rodney Browne's services as he preps people
to laugh and has them drink in the new wine. Browne's chant “Fill, ho ho
hehe fill... haha haha hehe fil ho ho fill heha fill huho fill hahha fill
hehe hahahaho.” (ad infinitum) Whether he is aware of this is unknownl, but
it does bring the results desired.

It was this mantra that many learned to repeat in these meetings that made
them incoherent intoxicated from the new wine. The body heat would increase
paralysis would set in much like one experiences in Kundalini yoga. Even in
Kundalini yoga the fifth located in the throat has a sound vibration of HA
(Bernaed Gunther Energy Ecstasy p.22) The guru can touch chakra points on
the forehead and the stomach to pass along the power to the recipient. Is
this all coincidence or are there real powers working through all this? They
certainly have been with the gurus and others into other religions and
spiritual practices.

The Gnostics used allegorical interpretations, spiritualizing literal
meanings in the Scripture. There was an inner and an outer meaning to the
Scripture (such as Rosicrucian's, and Masonry practice). Literal method of
interpretation was abandoned and in its place was hearing and interacting
with the Spirit alone. They received direct revelation from the Spirit which
was supposed to be superior to the Word.

Spirits masquerade as God or Jesus all the time. A Voice that was supposed
to be Jesus spoke to Dr. Helen Schucman, a Jewish atheist and psychologist
in 1965 in A Course in Miracles, that is an illusion, and sin is the
illusion that separates us from our own innate divinity, our own godhood.
This voice said to “Forget your dreams of sin and guilt and come with me,”
the denial of the Cross is evident if there is no sin, Jesus Christ as
Savior becomes meaningless. Echoing the Gnostics her Jesus declares, “It is
impossible to kill the Son of God.”

This spiritual knowledge was revelation that brought salvation to the
Gnostics. K. Copeland states “The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said,
“Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip
you up.' He said, 'Think this way--a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own
domain.' And I threw my Bible down...like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A
born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.'
He said, 'You are the very image, the very copy of that one.' I said,
'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on in
there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I
could have done the same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the
knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing,
cause you're a reborn man too.” (K. Copeland, Substitution and
Identification, K. Copeland Ministries, 1989, audiotape #00- 0202, Side B)

Notice God is saying if you had the same knowledge you could have defeated
Satan in hell. It wasn’t that Jesus was the chosen one, the Christ, but that
we all are what he is, we just need this knowledge and we can do all that he
can. This was exactly what the Gnostics taught in the early church.

Benny Hinn who is the ultimate example of Gnosticism with a Christian
covering explains his new revelation knowledge” on the “rebirth” of Christ
in hell: “My, you know, whoosh! The Holy Ghost is just showing me some
stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth-it’s, it’s just heavy
right now on me…He’s [referring to Jesus] in the underworld now. God isn’t
there, the Holy Ghost isn’t there, and the Bible says He was begotten. Do
you know what the word begotten means? It means reborn. Do you want another
shocker? Have you been begotten? So was He. Don’t let anyone deceive you.
Jesus was reborn. You say, ‘What are you talking about?’ He was reborn. He
had to be reborn, If He was not reborn, I could not be reborn, Jesus was
born again.” (Benny Hinn, Our Position ‘In Christ,’ Part 1, Orlando
Christian Center, FL. 1991), videotape #TV-254.)

Notice he says don't let anyone deceive you, insinuating this is absolute
truth. Jesus was reborn just as we were. This is crucial, was Jesus reborn
when only sinners need to be reborn again. Because ones spirit that is dead
to God and they have no relationship with him there is the necessity to have
the new birth. There are literally hundreds of examples such as this one in
Hinn’s ministry. Hinn's ministry is operational by Gnostic type revelations
of “God said”, “the spirit showed me.”

In a similar fashion to the word faith teaching the Gospel of Thomas, begins
by saying: “These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and
which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down . . . Whoever finds the interpretation
of these sayings will not experience death." In other words if you really
know these words, then no sickness or death will befall you. This extreme
can be found in the latter rain teachings as some have taught they will
become immortal

Today we have a new gnostic awakening that is taking place all over the
Christian Church!! It is being called various names such as “revival”,
“renewal”, even “transformation”, “the power of God” but it is far removed
Scripture and no different than the Gnostic doctrine once practiced early
on. We need to comprehend the extent of this gnostic influence today: Seeing
it for what it is will help you withstand the deception that is now taking
place. But you must see it for what it is or you will be carried away by it.
I do not see any more middle ground on this issue, it will increase even
more.

In the Gnostic view of spirituality has man ascending to different levels,
which it fostered a spiritual superiority through receiving visions,
revelations, communications with angels, insight by God speaking directly
and giving unknown doctrines; regularly in long conversations with its
participants and giving doctrines that are not found in the Scripture.

We have heard the argument that “the man with an experience is never at the
mercy of a man with an argument” This is what we are confronted in
Mormonism, no matter what objective proof is shown to a Mormon, they rely on
their subjective “burning in the bosom” experience and ignore what the Bible
states as objective truth. Beliefs and systems of thought came from personal
experience but this does not mean they are from God or of the truth.

For those who have begun to practice their Christianity like this, it
becomes very difficult to make sense to them why it is wrong. Because they
cannot understand the truth from the word, they are unable, incapable to
read or hear the word in its correct interpretation, its always outside the
Biblical context and meaning. It means only what they want it to mean and
that is subject to change at their own whim. Instead they have trained
themselves to look to an experience and feelings to validate what they
perceive as the truth. They can no longer follow logic through to its
conclusion because they are not intellectually attentive, and the words that
we are familiar with do not mean the same thing to them.

Today we are told that we are going into higher levels by numerous movers
and shakers of the new wave of the spirit: having Christ and his spirit is
not enough one must come into greater experiences of the spirit to be with
what is happening in the new thing. Normal worship is not enough, there must
be power to shake the heavenlies and destroy Satan's strongholds. We must
come to a new level to have power to do signs and wonders. This is Gnostic
talk. Levels were never associated with Christianity but they were of
Gnosticism. There is no one who has these levels incorporated into their
theological position than Rick Joyner who speaks of levels of anointing. He
believes the church is moving into a “new level”. he explains, “There will
be a. special anointing present for commissioning, confirming commission,
imparting spiritual gifts, and stirring up again spiritual gift that have
been dormant for a time,” 'There will be a special anointing released for
mobilizing the army of the Lord.” and 'There will be an impartation of
strategic vision ... to boldly march against the greatest strongholds of our
time ... This army of which Joel speaks is about to be revealed ... They
will take cities. They will burst through the enemy's strongholds and take
houses (families). The very heavens and the earth are about to shake because
of this great army ... the time has come.” (The Morning Star, Prophetic
Bulletin, August 1994)

In his the book the Final Quest which is all about his vision Joyner
describes himself ascending the multilevel Holy Mountain, above lower
‘levels' of truth with which other Christians are content with such as
Salvation,” “Sanctification,” “Prayer,” “Faith,” etc. these are the lower
levels. As he climbs, the mountain he learns new truths, gets new weapons
and is at a greater vantage point to kill the Vultures and other demonic
creatures that are coming after him.

He even meets an angel called WISDOM, who teaches him to rise to the third
heaven and this angel we later find is Jesus.

“Wisdom” which is “Sophia” the Greek word for wisdom was adored by some,
and the church of Santa Sophia (Holy Wisdom) was built in Constantinople in
the 6th century.

Remembering that the Gnostic ascent is to discover the Christ-spirit within,
read this quote from the book the Vision. Where wisdom tell Rick Joyner “You
are still lacking something very important. You must yet have a great
revelation of the King. Even though you have climbed to the top of the
mountain, and received from every truth along the way, and even though you
have stood in the Garden of God, tasted of His unconditional love, and have
seen His Son many times now, you still only understand a part of the whole
counsel of God, and that only superficially.”

“The Lord dwells within you. You have taught this many times, but now you
must live it, for you have eaten of the Tree of Life.” The angel then began
to lead me back to the gate [out of the Garden of Paradise]. I protested
that I did not want to leave. Looking surprised, the angel took me by the
shoulders and looked me in the eyes. That is when I recognized him as the
angel, Wisdom. “You never have to leave this garden. This garden is in your
heart because the Creator Himself is within you.”

On p.43 “I then looked past him to the Tree of Life. I had a compulsion to
grab all of the fruit that I could before leaving. Knowing my thoughts,
Wisdom gently shook me. “No. Even this fruit, gathered in fear, would go
bad. This fruit and this tree are within you because He is in you. You must
believe.”

Yet the Word of God tells us another story. It says that, with the Holy
Spirit as our Guide not an angel who reveals secrets we can know what God
has revealed through His Word. We do not need to discover inner wisdom by
some esoteric route. Climbing up levels of knowledge to have greater
revelations. So what are we to make of all this?

In the Gnostic Empire Strikes back by Peter Jones a Christian refuting the
Gnostic teaching he says this “experience is the way to perfection and
knowledge. Gnostic believers are “saved” when they realize who they are-a
part of the divine; possessing within themselves the kingdom; capable of
anything; and untrammeled by human traditions, creational structures, or
divine laws. p.26.

Theosophist and Anti Christian Joseph Campbell, in The Power of Myth,
explains the ascension to mean that Christ “has gone inward . . . to the
kingdom of heaven within. (Douglas R. Groothuis, “The Shamanized Jesus,”
Christianity Today, April 29, 1991, 20.)

There is a fine line between the truth and error in all this. If truth is to
be found within, it can be found anywhere, so long as it agrees with the
subjective experience of a Gnostic.

Irenaeus observed: “they adduce an untold multitude of apocryphal and
spurious writings, which they have composed.”

Some of the Gnostic documents are Letter to Rheginus, Treatise on the Three
Natures, Apocalypse of Adam, the Gospel of Matthias, Acts of Peter, and Acts
of Thomas. The Apocryphon of James, The Acts of Peter, the twelve apostles,
the treatise on the resurrection, three editions of the Apocryphon of John
with the creation story reinterpreted. In the early church there were
so-called infancy gospels that were written to fill in the details of the
early unrecorded years of the life of Christ. “The Birth of Mary,” a work
written in the middle of the second century; “The Protoevangelium of James,”
written about the same time; the first “Gospel of Infancy,” composed about
A.D. 400; which narrates the birth of Mary to innocents. Theses were stories
circulating at the beginning of the second century all the way through the
fifth century. These works include stories of Jesus forming clay figures of
animals and birds which He makes walk, fly, and eat. Another account has a
child who runs into Jesus falls down dead. These examples and representative
of the fanciful nature of the accounts. It has been proven that Muslims have
taken these stories from these apocryphal writings.

It was the apostle Paul who warned in Galatians chapter 1 “if we or angel
from heaven brings any other gospel, they are accursed. Notice that he
includes he himself among the “we” as the apostles, making the point that
anyone can find themselves removed from the truth if they do not hold fast
to the truth. They, the apostles held themselves to a higher standard. So
even a witness of Christ in the early church can be subject to this.

There were three categories of writings in the early centuries the Greek
words were Homologumena, Antilogumena, Notha.

Homologumena = all books accepted by the entire church east and west.

Antilogumena= books accepted by some of the church these were disputed books
because they were not familiar with them, but they were accepted later.

Notha= writings claiming inspiration but were false. There were false books
circulating by authors who claimed to be an apostle or penned an apostles
name to them. Many of them were Gnostics, they were considered false because
it contradicted the writings previously delivered. They as the church had to
make judgments on so-called writings. Today its no different we have to make
judgments; except these are in books, tapes, videos and crusades. All these
are to be compared to what is already delivered.

We're to discern and recognize who are true teachers and false teachers ...
Believers are to use discernment -it’s a command and if you are not looking
to discern, your being disobedient. We don’t make a judgment on the power or
experiences they give, but by what they teach.
thomas_blood
2003-08-03 14:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jani
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between
catholics,
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people
who
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
Jani
Jesus Christ wasn't even a "Christian". All that came later...
Wrong again, and you've offered *ZERO* evidence for your claims, as
usual.
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o, like you offered any evidence for any of *your* claims?

thomas_blood
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 18:48:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Jani
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between
catholics,
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people
who
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
Jani
Jesus Christ wasn't even a "Christian". All that came later...
Wrong again, and you've offered *ZERO* evidence for your claims, as
usual.
o, like you offered any evidence for any of *your* claims?
thomas_blood
Yes, in fact I have, unlike you and the rest of the Jesus cultists.
I suggest you start paying attention to the threads.


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Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 23:51:18 UTC
Permalink
fuck off.
That doesn't sound very loving of you, Thomas. But then again, you
were never a real Christian, only a fake in a long line of phonies.


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 05:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Jani
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between
catholics,
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people
who
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
Jani
Jesus Christ wasn't even a "Christian". All that came later...
Wrong again, and you've offered *ZERO* evidence for your claims,
as
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Jani
usual.
o, like you offered any evidence for any of *your* claims?
thomas_blood
Yes, in fact I have, unlike you and the rest of the Jesus cultists.
I suggest you start paying attention to the threads.
You're half right, Maxie. If you'd read the threads, you'll see where it was
written that Paul did in fact borrow elements from older mythology in the
newly formed "Christianity".
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 05:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Jani
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
Having just come back from observing the viciousness between
catholics,
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
baptists and fluffs on christnet, I think the *last* thing people
who
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Jani
self-define as christian want to see is "goodness and love".
Jani
Jesus Christ wasn't even a "Christian". All that came later...
Wrong again, and you've offered *ZERO* evidence for your
claims,
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
as
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Jani
usual.
o, like you offered any evidence for any of *your* claims?
thomas_blood
Yes, in fact I have, unlike you and the rest of the Jesus
cultists.
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
I suggest you start paying attention to the threads.
You're half right, Maxie. If you'd read the threads, you'll see where it was
written that Paul did in fact borrow elements from older mythology in the
newly formed "Christianity".
Did you just learn that? Old news, Dockery.


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Did you just learn that? Old news, Dockery.
No, I didn't just learn this. I've been learning for a long time, and
continue to learn.
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 06:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Did you just learn that? Old news, Dockery.
No, I didn't just learn this. I've been learning for a long time, and
continue to learn.
Dockery
Oh? What have you learned lately? Anything?


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 07:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
No, I didn't just learn this. I've been learning for a long time,
and
Post by Ironywaves
continue to learn.
Dockery
Oh? What have you learned lately? Anything?
I learn many things, every day. I expect to learn more tommorow.
Have a good morning, I'm sleepy.
Dockery

http://www.hotornot.com/r/?eid=NER8GQR&key=TVL
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 07:15:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
No, I didn't just learn this. I've been learning for a long time,
and
Post by Ironywaves
continue to learn.
Dockery
Oh? What have you learned lately? Anything?
I learn many things, every day. I expect to learn more tommorow.
Have a good morning, I'm sleepy.
Dockery
Good night.


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 07:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
I learn many things, every day. I expect to learn more tommorow.
Have a good morning, I'm sleepy.
Dockery
Good night.
You too, although I'm still hanging on... not sure for how long, I have a
meeting in the morning I shouldn't miss. I expect to learn several tidbits
of information...
Dockery

http://www.hotornot.com/r/?eid=NER8GQR&key=TVL
whatnext
2003-08-03 18:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Jesus Christ wasn't even a "Christian". All that came later... he's a
Shaman
Kickboxer and does Magick often. I think it is time for a new label
for
those who like Jesus but don't care for the trappings of hundreds of
years
of "Christianity". Brenda [and many others] are onto something good.
Pagans
were "country folk", where all the best ideas come from.
Dockery
It is very important to know the scriptures because of this. reading
the scriptures yourself frees you from other's interpretations.
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 20:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by whatnext
It is very important to know the scriptures because of this. reading
the scriptures yourself frees you from other's interpretations.
The "scriptures" as you call them, are nothing other than the
MIS-INTERPRETATIONS of older aphorisms, legends, stories, and accounts
of far older cultures.

Reading these myths does not "free" you from anything.


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thomas_blood
2003-08-03 23:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by whatnext
It is very important to know the scriptures because of this. reading
the scriptures yourself frees you from other's interpretations.
The "scriptures" as you call them, are nothing other than the
MIS-INTERPRETATIONS of older aphorisms, legends, stories, and accounts
of far older cultures.
Reading these myths does not "free" you from anything.
shut up bitch, we're trying to have a conversation here.

t_b
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 23:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by whatnext
It is very important to know the scriptures because of this.
reading
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by whatnext
the scriptures yourself frees you from other's interpretations.
The "scriptures" as you call them, are nothing other than the
MIS-INTERPRETATIONS of older aphorisms, legends, stories, and accounts
of far older cultures.
Reading these myths does not "free" you from anything.
shut up bitch, we're trying to have a conversation here.
That doesn't sound very Christ-like of you, Thomas.




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Ironywaves
2003-08-03 09:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Absolutely! Love, Peace and Jesus, to Hell with the Hatemongers!
Dockery
Post by whatnext
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
[...]
One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera,
If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera, possibly
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 10:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or not.
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus that
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and love
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the past
Absolutely! Love, Peace and Jesus, to Hell with the Hatemongers!
Dockery
Interestingly, it is you who is part of the group known as
"hatemongers".
You and those who feel it is their duty to "preach" the non-virtues of
the Jesus cult to pagans. Hasn't your flawed belief system done
enough damage, or do you just intend to do more?


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Ironywaves
2003-08-03 10:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or
not.
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus
that
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and
love
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the
past
Post by Ironywaves
Absolutely! Love, Peace and Jesus, to Hell with the Hatemongers!
Dockery
Interestingly, it is you who is part of the group known as
"hatemongers".
You and those who feel it is their duty to "preach" the non-virtues of
the Jesus cult to pagans. Hasn't your flawed belief system done
enough damage, or do you just intend to do more?
" I come with a sword."
-Jesus
Joseph Stifel
2003-08-04 04:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real or
not.
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus". The Jesus
that
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness and
love
Post by Ironywaves
Post by whatnext
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most people really
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in the
past
Post by Ironywaves
Absolutely! Love, Peace and Jesus, to Hell with the Hatemongers!
Dockery
Interestingly, it is you who is part of the group known as
"hatemongers".
You and those who feel it is their duty to "preach" the non-virtues of
the Jesus cult to pagans. Hasn't your flawed belief system done
enough damage, or do you just intend to do more?
" I come with a sword."
-Jesus
"Like a thief in the night."
Joseph Stifel
2003-08-03 05:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
It never ceases to amaze me how much the fundamental instruction that
figure gave us is ignored. We are told to "love one another" as simple
as that, not the verbose "Love is the Law, Love under will" but the
simpler, concise, ignored, "love one another."

Joseph (He shall give) Littleshoes.
thomas_blood
2003-08-03 14:24:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
It never ceases to amaze me how much the fundamental instruction that
figure gave us is ignored. We are told to "love one another" as simple
as that, not the verbose "Love is the Law, Love under will" but the
simpler, concise, ignored, "love one another."
Joseph (He shall give) Littleshoes.
it's not verbose, it's precise

thomas_blood
Joseph Stifel
2003-08-04 04:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
It never ceases to amaze me how much the fundamental instruction that
figure gave us is ignored. We are told to "love one another" as simple
as that, not the verbose "Love is the Law, Love under will" but the
simpler, concise, ignored, "love one another."
Joseph (He shall give) Littleshoes.
it's not verbose, it's precise
thomas_blood
I did not want to scare/offend any body. To suggest that the "Law" of
"Jesus" was or is "Love" is a little less threeatening than crediting
Crowley with the same thing. Plus, it was "on topic" one was speaking
of "Jesus" not "Crowley".

Joseph Littelshoes
Joseph Littleshoes
2003-08-04 19:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by Will Dockery
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
It never ceases to amaze me how much the fundamental instruction
that
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
figure gave us is ignored. We are told to "love one another" as
simple
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
as that, not the verbose "Love is the Law, Love under will" but
the
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
simpler, concise, ignored, "love one another."
Joseph (He shall give) Littleshoes.
it's not verbose, it's precise
thomas_blood
I did not want to scare/offend any body. To suggest that the "Law" of
"Jesus" was or is "Love" is a little less threeatening than crediting
Crowley with the same thing. Plus, it was "on topic" one was speaking
of "Jesus" not "Crowley".
Joseph Littelshoes
Hello Alt.arts.Poetry & mythology. And hello again alt.pagan. This is
just a note to say i am aware of the X posting' of this thread and
consciously choose to perpetuate them.
I have book marked alt.arts.poetry.comments.
Joseph
Count de Money
Will Dockery
2003-08-05 07:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by Will Dockery
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).
It never ceases to amaze me how much the fundamental instruction
that
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
figure gave us is ignored. We are told to "love one another" as
simple
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
as that, not the verbose "Love is the Law, Love under will" but
the
Post by Joseph Stifel
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Joseph Stifel
simpler, concise, ignored, "love one another."
Joseph (He shall give) Littleshoes.
it's not verbose, it's precise
thomas_blood
I did not want to scare/offend any body. To suggest that the "Law" of
"Jesus" was or is "Love" is a little less threeatening than crediting
Crowley with the same thing. Plus, it was "on topic" one was speaking
of "Jesus" not "Crowley".
Joseph Littelshoes
Hello Alt.arts.Poetry & mythology. And hello again alt.pagan. This is
just a note to say i am aware of the X posting' of this thread and
consciously choose to perpetuate them.
I have book marked alt.arts.poetry.comments.
Joseph
Count de Money
This is an important moment in poetry.
Will

http://www.angelfire.com/al2/dockery
Phoenix
2003-08-05 23:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Joseph Littleshoes
Hello Alt.arts.Poetry & mythology. And hello again alt.pagan.
This is
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Joseph Littleshoes
just a note to say i am aware of the X posting' of this thread and
consciously choose to perpetuate them.
I have book marked alt.arts.poetry.comments.
Joseph
Count de Money
This is an important moment in poetry.
Will
How the fluck is a note from Joe, an important moment in poetry?
heheheheeee
P
Ironywaves
2003-08-05 23:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Joseph Littleshoes
Hello Alt.arts.Poetry & mythology. And hello again alt.pagan.
This is
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Joseph Littleshoes
just a note to say i am aware of the X posting' of this thread
and
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Joseph Littleshoes
consciously choose to perpetuate them.
I have book marked alt.arts.poetry.comments.
Joseph
Count de Money
This is an important moment in poetry.
Will
How the fluck is a note from Joe, an important moment in poetry?
heheheheeee
P
Everything's an important moment in poetry! Poetry is the ultimate, the
reason for living! That, and banana bread.
Will

http://www.hotornot.com/r/?eid=NER8GQR&key=TVL
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 08:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the man
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
Nope. Before. Way, way, before.




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Ironywaves
2003-08-03 08:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man
Post by Will Dockery
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
Nope. Before. Way, way, before.
Well, at this point I expected that answer.
Dockery

The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
(from about 70 C.E.).

[...]

One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesua or
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera, who apparently had some
influence with his movement, but may have been much more than that;
we simply don't know. Apparently he had enough influence that he
became a political threat; sufficient that he was declared a heretic
by a temple court and was stoned to death and his body hanged from a
tree on the eve of Passover in 88 B.C.E. It is my opinion, though
that his influence didn't die with him. Within a few years,
mythmaking began around this Essene, attributing to him miracles and
a resurrection. Indeed, there are even several first-century
Christian references to this supposed miracle worker.

If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea
Scrolls, as some have suggested, his impact on the movement towards
Jewish reform was considerable. And if he was the Teacher of
Righteousness, it would answer a lot of interesting questions, such
as the scattered first century Christian and Talmudic references to a
miracle worker named Jesus ben Pantera. Among them are a quote from
Origen, saying that his arch-rival Celsus had heard from a Jew in
Jerusalem that Jesus Ben Pantera was born of Mary as the result of a
rape by a Roman soldier named Pantera, and had borne the baby in
secret. There may be something to this rumor, which would account for
Mark's obvious embarrassment regarding the origins of Jesus; Mark
never mentions Joseph as the husband of Mary. Note also that it was
both the Roman custom and the custom of the Jews to include a
patrilineal surname as part of a person's full name; yet nowhere in
the New Testament does the surname of Jesus, (or Joseph, for that
matter) appear. Jesus is referred to as Jesus of Nazareth, a
geographical surname that was usually reserved by Jews for
illigitmate children of unknown patrilineage (Romans used the surname
of the father, regardless of the legitimacy of the birth). The Talmud
refers to Jeshu as being the illegitimate son of an adultress named
Mary Magdala. There are numerous rabbinical sources from the early
Christian period which refer to the Jesus of Christian fame as Jesus
ben Pantera. There are several interesting references to a Jeshu ben
Pandera from Nazareth who traveled around and practiced magic during
the reign of Alexander Janneus, who ruled Palestine from 104 to 78
BCE. As these references are Talmudic, and therefore presumably anti-
Christian, scholars have simply dismissed them as referring to
someone else or being fabricated propaganda. But if they really do
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera,
possibly the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E.

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
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thomas_blood
2003-08-03 14:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man
Post by Will Dockery
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
Nope. Before. Way, way, before.
mere assertion.

thomas_blood
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 18:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man
Post by Will Dockery
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
Nope. Before. Way, way, before.
mere assertion.
thomas_blood
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times. The
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found in many
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has been said,
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is merely
another myth that built upon older myths.


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thomas_blood
2003-08-03 23:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man
Post by Will Dockery
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
Nope. Before. Way, way, before.
mere assertion.
thomas_blood
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times. The
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found in many
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has been said,
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is merely
another myth that built upon older myths.
while i am very sympathetic to this pov, i remain impassively ignorant
on the topic, and so will ignore and attack you at every p[ossible juncture.

t_b
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 23:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times. The
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found in many
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has been said,
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is merely
another myth that built upon older myths.
while i am very sympathetic to this pov, i remain impassively
ignorant
Post by thomas_blood
on the topic, and so will ignore and attack you at every p[ossible juncture.
That's quite interesting, Thomas. Exactly how long have you been
having these delusions of being "attacked"? I've examined the thread,
and you are the only one "attacking" others. Need I remind you to
get a refill on your medication?


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zayton
2003-08-04 04:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times. The
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found in
many
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has been
said,
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is
merely
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
another myth that built upon older myths.
while i am very sympathetic to this pov, i remain impassively
ignorant
Post by thomas_blood
on the topic, and so will ignore and attack you at every p[ossible
juncture.
That's quite interesting, Thomas. Exactly how long have you been
having these delusions of being "attacked"? I've examined the thread,
and you are the only one "attacking" others. Need I remind you to
get a refill on your medication?
Uh, Maxie, He said he would attack you. Maybe he isn't the one who needs to
check his meds.

Joe
Joseph Stifel
2003-08-04 04:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Will Dockery
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based on the
man
Post by Will Dockery
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' supposed death
Nope. Before. Way, way, before.
mere assertion.
thomas_blood
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times. The
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found in many
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has been said,
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is merely
another myth that built upon older myths.
while i am very sympathetic to this pov, i remain impassively ignorant
on the topic, and so will ignore and attack you at every p[ossible juncture.
t_b
Well thats just weird.

JL
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 05:31:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
mere assertion.
thomas_blood
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times. The
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found in many
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has been said,
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is merely
another myth that built upon older myths.
I agree with most of that, but the were NOT "Jesus" cults.
Dockery
That's exactly what they are, and it's exactly how they are described.

http://tinyurl.com/isfe

The Christ Cults

The reference here is to communities for whom neither the teachings
nor the miracles of Jesus had any significance, nor even Jesus himself
as a historical figure. The title "Christ" does not refer to Jesus as
the Jewish messiah, but is rather the name for the heavenly savior. In
contrast to Burton Mack, Price distinguishes two different movements
under this category (75).

The Jesus Martyr Cult -- It was in this movement that the death of
Jesus was first interpreted as the remedy for sins -- not for Jews,
who had their own "perfectly adequate ways of dealing with sins," but
for Gentiles. The problem first arose when Gentiles in the diaspora
wanted to be baptized into the Hellenistic Jewish-Christian Jesus
movement. "Gentiles could not enter into the worshipping community of
Israel because they dared not draw near the Divine Presence reeking of
ritual impurity." (76) Presupposed here was the Jewish belief that the
Jewish martyr-saints of Maccabean times had died as witnesses to
righteousness -- whose deaths were regarded by God as an atonement for
the sins of their less-righteous brothers and sisters. And they
reasoned that in a similar way that the righteous death of Jesus would
be regarded by God as atonement for the sins of the Gentiles -- which
made it possible for God-fearing Gentiles to become full members of
one wing of Judaism without taking upon themselves the ritual
obligations of Judaism (e.g., circumcision). (77)

Price later observes that "There is... no reason to think that the
Jesus martyr cult involved any sort of belief in the resurrection of
Jesus, except maybe in the future, at the general resurrection... What
kind of a martyrdom is it when someone dies only for a couple of
days?" (93). In 1 Cor 15:3f., for example, it is said that Christ
"died for our sins," but the salvation significance of his
resurrection (v. 4) remains obscure, and is only later clarified vv.
20ff.

Such an atonement theology should probably be located "among
Hellenistic mission-congregations [in the diaspora?] who organized
themselves into their own synagogues parallel to the Jewish synagogues
they had previously attended." (78) Price suggests that the Epistle of
James, with its Jewish-Christian character and its mixture of Jewish
and Stoic maxims might derive from such circles, and that such persons
might be those referred to Rev. 2:9 as "saying they are Jews and are
not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

Price observes that it would be no surprise, however, to find such
persons "sharing worship with Mack's Synagogue Reform movement," and
might also have contributed to the later Q communities (78f).
Moreover, being only marginally Jewish, such a Jesus martyr cult may
have overlapped with the Galilean and Samarian Jesus people in Mack's
Community of Israel, who were also regarded as marginally Jewish by
Judean Jews.

The Gnostic Christ Cult -- The roots of this tradition can be traced
back to Syrian Gnosticism, where the concept of "Christ" had nothing
to do with Jewish messianism, but referred rather to a transcendent,
Spiritual Power, the Primal Man, whose shards had been dispersed and
taken captive in the material world (79f). It was here also that the
concept of the "apostle" as a messenger sent by God had its origin.
The Gnostic Apostle is "sent from the heavenly realm of light to
enlighten poor mortals." In Gnostic writings this Apostle is called by
several names: Seth, Adam, Enosh -- and, in Christian Gnosticism,
Jesus. The Gnostic Apostle calls the lost sheep to recognize their
original identity with the spiritual Christ, whereby they themselves
become apostles, calling others to recognize their own Christ identity
(82). All this obviously reflects the Christian Gnostic writings from
Nag Hamaddi. But it also forms the background for what became Pauline
Christianity.

Price observes that the "super apostles" who confront Paul in 2
Corinthians may reflect a radical form of this tradition (83), and
would also fit quite well with the itinerant preachers in the Sayings
Source (Q) (84). Price also suggests that the Gnostic Christian Christ
could have been mythically associated with Jesus because the name
"Jesus" (= "Joshua") means "savior" (see Matt 1:21).

The Kyrios Christos Cult -- The reference here is to early Christian
communities in which Christ was venerated as a dying and risen Lord
(Kyrios). The background here is the myriad dying and rising dieties
worshiped in the Hellenistic world (e.g., Osiris of Egypt, Attis of
Phrygia, Adonis, Dionysius, Mithras). (86ff) While the myths of these
gods differed in particular elements, they were variations of a single
theme. Salvation (immortality) could be obtained by ritual
participation in the god's death and resurrection. "Entering into
these rituals initiated the process of inner spiritual transformation
into a divine and immortal being" (88). Because these rituals were
generally kept secret, they were called "mystery religions."

Christian apologists -- even supposedly sophisticated modern-day
scholars -- have devoted enormous energy attempting to sever any
relationship between these religions and Christianity. So Price
presents a long rejoinder to their views (pp. 88-91). In fact, it is
completely understandable how this form of Christianity arose in the
Hellenistic world.

Once it reached Hellenistic soil, the story of Jesus attracted to
itself a number of mythic motifs that were common to the syncretic
religions mood of the era. Indeed, as people familiar with other
Mystery Religions came to embrace the Christian savior, it would have
been practically impossible for them not to have clothed him in the
accouterments of his fellow Kyrioi. If Jesus was a savior, the he was
ipso facto to be considered a dying and rising god whose immortality
one might share through participatory sacraments. (92)

"Since the Mystery Religions made no exclusive claim and begrudged no
member his simultaneous membership in a parallel Mystery, we must
assume that many Christian 'converts' had no thought of abandoning
Mithras, Isis, Attis, or Dionysus." This situation seems to be
reflected in Paul's orthodox plea for exclusivity in 1 Cor 8:5f.:
"Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth - as
indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords' - yet for us there is
one God, the Father,... and one Lord Jesus Christ..."

What Paul apparently faced in these instances was the practice of what
Max Müller called 'kathenotheism,' the worship of several gods, but at
one time. With the gates thus open, we would be amazed not to find a
free flow of older 'pagan' myths and tiruals into Christianity... And
we need not think that these Corinthians had fallen from some purer
version of Christian orthodox truth. No, what we are seeing in the
Pauline warnings against kathenotheism is the beginning of the process
to exclude the other faiths as rivals and counterfits of Christianity.
(92f)


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Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 06:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
mere assertion.
thomas_blood
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times.
The
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found
in
Post by Ironywaves
many
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has
been
Post by Ironywaves
said,
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is
merely
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
another myth that built upon older myths.
I agree with most of that, but the were NOT "Jesus" cults.
Dockery
That's exactly what they are, and it's exactly how they are
described.
Er....Max, You do realize that you have posted an article on how the
Christian Gospel story influenced the Mystery Cults, and not ther
other way
around.
Wrong, Joe.

These are quotes from a book called "Deconstructing Jesus", and the
book says nothing of the sort. It does discuss how the Mystery cults
influenced the Christian Cults.
Post by Ironywaves
The Kyrios Christos Cult -- The reference here is to early
Christian
Post by Ironywaves
communities in which Christ was venerated as a dying and risen Lord
(Kyrios). The background here is the myriad dying and rising
dieties
Post by Ironywaves
worshiped in the Hellenistic world (e.g., Osiris of Egypt, Attis of
Phrygia, Adonis, Dionysius, Mithras).
Joe, get your glasses checked.




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Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 06:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, interesting... but, the year. All this took place less than
2000 years
ago, after Jesus, not before.
Dockery
The Kyrios Christos Cult -- The reference here is to early Christian
communities in which Christ was venerated as a dying and risen Lord
(Kyrios). The background here is the myriad dying and rising dieties
worshiped in the Hellenistic world (e.g., Osiris of Egypt, Attis of
Phrygia, Adonis, Dionysius, Mithras). (86ff) While the myths of these
gods differed in particular elements, they were variations of a single
theme. Salvation (immortality) could be obtained by ritual
participation in the god's death and resurrection. "Entering into
these rituals initiated the process of inner spiritual
transformation
into a divine and immortal being" (88). Because these rituals were
generally kept secret, they were called "mystery religions."
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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
No, it's a fact that I've substantiated a number of times. The
earliest "literary" evidence for the Jesus cult can be found in
many
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
other older cultures. Everything attributed to "Jesus" has been
said,
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
found, and practiced by cultures far older. The Jesus cult is
merely
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
another myth that built upon older myths.
I agree with most of that, but the were NOT "Jesus" cults.
Dockery
That's exactly what they are, and it's exactly how they are described.
Er....Max, You do realize that you have posted an article on how the
Christian Gospel story influenced the Mystery Cults, and not ther other
way
around.
Joe
Post by Ironywaves
http://tinyurl.com/isfe
The Christ Cults
The reference here is to communities for whom neither the teachings
nor the miracles of Jesus had any significance, nor even Jesus himself
as a historical figure. The title "Christ" does not refer to Jesus as
the Jewish messiah, but is rather the name for the heavenly savior. In
contrast to Burton Mack, Price distinguishes two different movements
under this category (75).
The Jesus Martyr Cult -- It was in this movement that the death of
Jesus was first interpreted as the remedy for sins -- not for Jews,
who had their own "perfectly adequate ways of dealing with sins," but
for Gentiles. The problem first arose when Gentiles in the diaspora
wanted to be baptized into the Hellenistic Jewish-Christian Jesus
movement. "Gentiles could not enter into the worshipping community of
Israel because they dared not draw near the Divine Presence reeking of
ritual impurity." (76) Presupposed here was the Jewish belief that the
Jewish martyr-saints of Maccabean times had died as witnesses to
righteousness -- whose deaths were regarded by God as an atonement for
the sins of their less-righteous brothers and sisters. And they
reasoned that in a similar way that the righteous death of Jesus would
be regarded by God as atonement for the sins of the Gentiles -- which
made it possible for God-fearing Gentiles to become full members of
one wing of Judaism without taking upon themselves the ritual
obligations of Judaism (e.g., circumcision). (77)
Price later observes that "There is... no reason to think that the
Jesus martyr cult involved any sort of belief in the resurrection of
Jesus, except maybe in the future, at the general resurrection... What
kind of a martyrdom is it when someone dies only for a couple of
days?" (93). In 1 Cor 15:3f., for example, it is said that Christ
"died for our sins," but the salvation significance of his
resurrection (v. 4) remains obscure, and is only later clarified vv.
20ff.
Such an atonement theology should probably be located "among
Hellenistic mission-congregations [in the diaspora?] who organized
themselves into their own synagogues parallel to the Jewish synagogues
they had previously attended." (78) Price suggests that the Epistle of
James, with its Jewish-Christian character and its mixture of Jewish
and Stoic maxims might derive from such circles, and that such persons
might be those referred to Rev. 2:9 as "saying they are Jews and are
not, but are a synagogue of Satan."
Price observes that it would be no surprise, however, to find such
persons "sharing worship with Mack's Synagogue Reform movement," and
might also have contributed to the later Q communities (78f).
Moreover, being only marginally Jewish, such a Jesus martyr cult may
have overlapped with the Galilean and Samarian Jesus people in Mack's
Community of Israel, who were also regarded as marginally Jewish by
Judean Jews.
The Gnostic Christ Cult -- The roots of this tradition can be traced
back to Syrian Gnosticism, where the concept of "Christ" had nothing
to do with Jewish messianism, but referred rather to a transcendent,
Spiritual Power, the Primal Man, whose shards had been dispersed and
taken captive in the material world (79f). It was here also that the
concept of the "apostle" as a messenger sent by God had its origin.
The Gnostic Apostle is "sent from the heavenly realm of light to
enlighten poor mortals." In Gnostic writings this Apostle is called by
several names: Seth, Adam, Enosh -- and, in Christian Gnosticism,
Jesus. The Gnostic Apostle calls the lost sheep to recognize their
original identity with the spiritual Christ, whereby they themselves
become apostles, calling others to recognize their own Christ identity
(82). All this obviously reflects the Christian Gnostic writings from
Nag Hamaddi. But it also forms the background for what became Pauline
Christianity.
Price observes that the "super apostles" who confront Paul in 2
Corinthians may reflect a radical form of this tradition (83), and
would also fit quite well with the itinerant preachers in the Sayings
Source (Q) (84). Price also suggests that the Gnostic Christian Christ
could have been mythically associated with Jesus because the name
"Jesus" (= "Joshua") means "savior" (see Matt 1:21).
The Kyrios Christos Cult -- The reference here is to early Christian
communities in which Christ was venerated as a dying and risen Lord
(Kyrios). The background here is the myriad dying and rising dieties
worshiped in the Hellenistic world (e.g., Osiris of Egypt, Attis of
Phrygia, Adonis, Dionysius, Mithras). (86ff) While the myths of these
gods differed in particular elements, they were variations of a single
theme. Salvation (immortality) could be obtained by ritual
participation in the god's death and resurrection. "Entering into
these rituals initiated the process of inner spiritual transformation
into a divine and immortal being" (88). Because these rituals were
generally kept secret, they were called "mystery religions."
Christian apologists -- even supposedly sophisticated modern-day
scholars -- have devoted enormous energy attempting to sever any
relationship between these religions and Christianity. So Price
presents a long rejoinder to their views (pp. 88-91). In fact, it is
completely understandable how this form of Christianity arose in the
Hellenistic world.
Once it reached Hellenistic soil, the story of Jesus attracted to
itself a number of mythic motifs that were common to the syncretic
religions mood of the era. Indeed, as people familiar with other
Mystery Religions came to embrace the Christian savior, it would have
been practically impossible for them not to have clothed him in the
accouterments of his fellow Kyrioi. If Jesus was a savior, the he was
ipso facto to be considered a dying and rising god whose immortality
one might share through participatory sacraments. (92)
"Since the Mystery Religions made no exclusive claim and begrudged no
member his simultaneous membership in a parallel Mystery, we must
assume that many Christian 'converts' had no thought of abandoning
Mithras, Isis, Attis, or Dionysus." This situation seems to be
"Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth - as
indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords' - yet for us there is
one God, the Father,... and one Lord Jesus Christ..."
What Paul apparently faced in these instances was the practice of what
Max Müller called 'kathenotheism,' the worship of several gods, but at
one time. With the gates thus open, we would be amazed not to find a
free flow of older 'pagan' myths and tiruals into Christianity... And
we need not think that these Corinthians had fallen from some purer
version of Christian orthodox truth. No, what we are seeing in the
Pauline warnings against kathenotheism is the beginning of the process
to exclude the other faiths as rivals and counterfits of Christianity.
(92f)
So, they foretold the coming of Jesus, as the Jews also had?
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 07:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
So, they foretold the coming of Jesus, as the Jews also had?
Dockery
No such incident ever occurred.
(http://www.grisoft.com).
Yes it did.
Will
Where?


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 11:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
So, they foretold the coming of Jesus, as the Jews also had?
Dockery
No such incident ever occurred.
(http://www.grisoft.com).
Yes it did.
Will
Where?
In some of those books they wrote.
Alex Sumner
2003-08-03 10:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Aleister Crowley was a famous occultist (1875 - 1947). Michael Crowley (born
sometime in the 20th century) is the leader of an organisation claiming
amongst many others to be the true Golden Dawn. Vivianne Crowley (again born
sometime in the 20th century) is a Wiccan High Priestess and author.

They all practiced or practice the occult. They all have a similar name.
They are all one and the same person!!!

This is of course a ridiculous notion, but it uses the exact same (lack of)
logic as the justification given for claiming that Jesus Christ and Joshua
Ben Pandira, his namesake from a hundred years previously, are in fact the
same person.

AS
http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/
Ironywaves
2003-08-03 10:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Sumner
Aleister Crowley was a famous occultist (1875 - 1947). Michael Crowley (born
sometime in the 20th century) is the leader of an organisation claiming
amongst many others to be the true Golden Dawn. Vivianne Crowley (again born
sometime in the 20th century) is a Wiccan High Priestess and author.
They all practiced or practice the occult. They all have a similar name.
They are all one and the same person!!!
This is of course a ridiculous notion, but it uses the exact same (lack of)
logic as the justification given for claiming that Jesus Christ and Joshua
Ben Pandira, his namesake from a hundred years previously, are in fact the
same person.
AS
http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/
Just as i am not the Will Dockery of 100 years before.
Dockery

The Gnostic Jesus, a Gnostic Christianity

Eccl 3:15 That which is has already been, and what is to be has already
been; and God requires an account of what is past”

History has a funny way of repeating itself. As Christianity first began to
grow, spiritual competition began to surface. As Paul, and the other
apostles labored to build up the house of God which was to be the pillar and
ground of the truth, the enemy also labored and bore the first competitor to
the Church, Gnosticism. This was the first heresy that the church had to
contend against.

The old saying what crawls in one generation walks in the next. What we have
emerging and synthesizing within the Church today is no different than
before. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.
Its unfortunate that little attention is given to the early Church after the
apostles. It was at this time that the challenges came into the body that
prompted the church to explain its faith. As it was so it is again,
Gnosticism has arisen in various ways to challenge us and the revealed Word
of God and it is still alive and well in the year 2002. The person of
Christ, the true Christian Gospel is again finding itself being distorted in
the hands of those who think they have a greater revelation.

The original Gnosticism that predated Christianity was a philosophical
system built on Greek philosophy that taught matter was evil and the Spirit
was good. According to the Gnostic world- view, the created order was evil,
inferior, and opposed to the good. God created the first order, but each
successive order was the work of anti-gods, archons, or a demiurges (a
subordinate deity). These spheres are ruled by archons who guard their
spheres by barring the souls who are seeking to ascend from the realm of
darkness and captivity which is below, to the realm of light which is above.
This was done by spiritual knowledge or experience, we identify it today as
enlightenment.

They taught a docetism which promoted a clear separation between the
material and spiritual world. Some of the Christian Gnostics said since
matter was evil God could not really incarnate in a human body He was not
subject to any human experiences or feelings. The Christian form of docetism
taught that Jesus body was not a real body, was really a (spirit) phantom.
he only appeared in human form and only appeared to suffer, it was an
illusion. Thus Jesus could be a pure spiritual being in the midst of an evil
world and not be contaminated by it. Jesus only appeared to have flesh which
denied his genuine humanity. They believed if Christ suffered he could not
be divine, (this was an integral part of Gnosticism) because God cannot
suffer. Instead the Bible says that God descended into sinful matter and
took on human flesh, it was real, this they could not believe. You can see
this error in the cults today when they refuse to believe the Bible teaches
God became a man. And that the resurrection was a spirit body and not the
flesh. The Bible teaches that the body that emerged from the tomb Sunday
morning was the exact same body that went into the tomb except it was
glorified.

The Bible term en sarki in flesh (2 Tim. 3:16) and became flesh (Jn 1:14),
means Jesus is of a complete human nature, 100% humanity. 1 Jn.1:1-4. 1 John
4:2 says, “that every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in
the flesh is of God.” John is writing after the resurrection, he uses the
perfect tense in the Greek language that denotes a past action with
continuing results into the future. Jesus came in the flesh, He rose in the
flesh and is still in the flesh.” Verse 3 then states, “that every spirit
that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of
God.” Those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh are of the anti-Christ
spirit. This is one of the ways to discern a false teacher from a true one.
But there are many other tests needed to be applied.

If Jesus Christ is not presently in a flesh body in heaven then the
integrity of His incarnation has been deprived. Then one would have to
concede that he is no longer incarnate and he has no flesh today, we would
then have no true resurrection, no mediator or high priest. This would mean
that 1 Tim. 2:5 is not true “there is one mediator between God and man, the
MAN Christ Jesus.”.

When you have someone deny this doctrine indirectly such as Creflo Dollar or
Kenneth Copeland who says “Adam in the Garden of Eden was God manifested in
the flesh” (Following the faith of Abraham #01-3001 Audio side 1). Or the
Mormon Brigham Young who says “Adam is our father and God.” (Brigham Young,
Deseret News, 6/16/1873). It is denying Christ was the only God in the
flesh, substituting another creature. This is the denial that John addresses
“ every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
is not of God” for it is an exclusive statement to mean Him alone as the
only human who is also God. (Christ having two natures 100% God and 100%
man ). You don’t have to deny it directly, but can take away from this one
time incarnation by adding another.

Then there were others who denied he rose physically like the Jehovah’s
Witnesses do today, or the Institute of Divine Metaphysical Research. They
claim he rose as a spirit no longer needing his body.

Biblically He as God came in the flesh and rose in the same flesh, yet it
was transformed to an eternal flesh body, not a spirit one leaving the flesh
behind.

The early church was adamant on this. Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165) said
plainly: “The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which dies.” As
for those who “maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual,
and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these
persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise.” Justin even insisted that
Christ's ascension shows that it is possible “for flesh to ascend into
heaven.” This means that this would include the rapture of which many cults
deny. Tertullian declared the resurrection of the flesh to be the church's
“rule of faith,” saying it “was taught by Christ” and only denied by
heretics. In Against all Heresies Chapt.4. Cerdo, Marcion, Lugan, Apelles It
states” A resurrection of the soul merely does he approve, denying that of
the body.” “He reinstated in heaven His spirit only. This man denies the
resurrection of the flesh.”

Gnosticism is a Greek term which relates to a special kind of privileged
knowledge that is not common to all but to chosen ones. A Gnostic is a
`knowing one'. (Gnosis means to know, we are familiar with the word
agnostic - one who claims not to know). The Gnostics supposedly had
knowledge of God that was exclusive, that another did not have. They
considered themselves superior to the average Christian. The Gnostics taught
that man is composed of body, soul, and spirit. The body and the soul are
man's earthly existence, and evil. Enclosed in the soul, is the spirit a
divine substance of man. This “spirit” is asleep and ignorant; it needs to
be awakened and liberated by this special knowledge. (This teaching is also
found in Caballa.) To the early Christian Gnostic salvation came by
knowledge and experience, not by the Word of God. Those who did not have thi
s knowledge were associated with ignorance. It was through esoteric truth
they received direct revelation from the Spirit which was more important
than the Word. Instead real spirituality according to the Bible promotes
humility rather than pride.

The Christians had the Scriptures. But Knowing God through a a written book
was considered Head knowledge and insufficient for a spiritual life. The
Gnostics offered experiential knowledge, the deeper things that came from
the spirit.

Pastor Bill Randles in his book Mending the nets puts it this way, “The
Gnostics were impatient with the standard Christian teaching regarding the
knowledge of God. It was just too simple and pedestrian. Good enough for
uneducated peasants, slaves, and the disenfranchised people who made up the
bulk of the Christian converts in the first century (see 1 Cor. 1:25-26),
but orthodox Christianity was far too plain for converted philosophers and
intellectuals!

“Think of it this way. Do you know God? How do you know Him? Have you ever
seen Him? Have you ever heard His audible voice? Have you gotten beyond the
Scriptures into a deeper intimacy with God, or are you still on the level of
“mere head knowledge”? You say you love Jesus, but have you ever seen Him?
Are you still waiting for Him to come and rescue you in some kind of an
escape plan?” (Pastor Bill Randles, Mending the Nets p. 9)

So what does this have to do with today, you may ask? Everything. The New
Age movement which is Gnostic in its origin and mystical in its practice,
has had a tremendous influence on the world and even the church. It’s a
blend of many esoteric methods to discover truth and live a freestyle
spirituality. But it also has its presence in the Church and many are
completely unaware what kind of Christianity they are practicing. They need
the tools to distinguish and identify it.

But the Church has never been an island by itself on this counterfeit
spirituality. It has today, as it once did, come inside the Church. There
are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a
revival.

Writers of the New Testament condemned many of the Gnostic teachings. There
are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a
revival. Paul emphasized a wisdom and knowledge that comes from God and does
not concern itself with idle speculations, angelic visitations, fables, and
a amoral lifestyle (Col. 2:8-23; 1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 2:16-19; Titus 1:10-16).
Paul addresses the Gnostic influences in portions of Colossians as a direct
threat to Christ being our salvation and His being sufficient in all things.
To overcome the indulgences of the flesh The “Colossian Heresy” taught a
false philosophy, which denied the all-sufficiency and pre-eminence of Jesus
Christ (Col. 2:8). When he wrote that “in him dwells All the fullness of the
deity bodily” it was a rebuttal against the Gnostics.

Ethical behavior among the Gnostics were on two ends of the spectrum. Some
tried to separate themselves from all earthly evil in order to avoid
contamination, other Gnostics were libertians. The spiritual knowledge meant
having the freedom to participate in all sorts of indulgences. Since they
had received divine knowledge and were enlightened, it didn't matter how
they lived in the body.

In its place they promoted Judaic Ceremonialism, attached special
significance to the rite of circumcision, with the observance of special
days (Col. 2:16-17). Asceticism which called for harsh treatment of the body
to control its passions (Col. 2:20-23). 1 Tim.4:1-5 the forbidding of meats
and marriage was even then found in early Gnosticism in their ascetic
practices to purify the body. The denial of the flesh went to extremes. The
teaching of demons was developing as well as spirits masquerading as the
spirit of truth communicated to man by offering him superior knowledge
beyond the Scriptures. This can be easily recognized in the new age movement
under its practice of channeling or the old fashion séances. But can we
recognize it when it takes place in the church?

The apostle Paul explains they had revelation from angels (messengers) and
they even went to the extreme and worshipped them (Col. 2:18), as they took
delight in things they had not seen through vain imaginations, receiving
visions that taught them. The Gnostic Carpocrates taught ...“At every sinful
and infamous deed an angel is present, and he who commits it ...addresses
him by his name and says, `O thou angel, I use thy work! O thou Power of
such and such, I perform thy deed!' And this is the perfect knowledge,
unafraid to stray into such actions whose very names are unmentionable.”
(Quoted in Spirit Wars p.174 Peter Jones)

Stories of angelic revelation that counter the word of God makes up a major
portion of new revelation today. When Duplantis went to heaven by an angel
he describes seeing the Father and Jesus “I asked that angel, now, you know,
kind of a dumb question. I said, “Where's the Holy Spirit?” The angel tells
him he’s on earth.

Today people have angels appear and give numerous messages about peoples
future, their ministry even about their city.

We can hear similarities of the early Gnostic pursuits as certain men teach
what will be in the future.

In 1987, “Jesus” promised dramatic angel manifestations were going to
increase in the church to Kenneth Copeland and that many “will have
visitations from the spirit realm.” “Jesus” also told Copeland “A time is
coming when there will be manifestation of angels more than usual, more than
there has been in the past. Many of you are going to witness for yourselves
the angel that has been put in charge and in command of your ministry and
your life. Many of you are going to have visitations from the spirit realm.
Many of you will have divinely appointed visions and dreams... Suddenly, you
will be standing in that [spiritual] country, and suddenly you'll deliver a
message and then suddenly you'll be brought back in your kitchen again. Oh,
I have some outstanding things, saith the Lord. Kenneth Copeland, (“Take
Time to Pray,” Believers Voice of Victory, February 1987, p. 9.)

Rick Joyner states “Angelic appearances will be common to the saints and a
visible glory of the Lord will appear upon some for extended periods of time
as power flows through them” (Rick Joyner, The Harvest, 128-129).

Benny Hinn says a similar thing, “The angels of heaven are about to appear
in visible form…the angels of the Lord are about to invade planet earth and
come to your house and literally open the prison doors like they did with
Peter.” (Benny Hinn Honolulu Blaisdell, Jan.21, 1999).

All this detracts from the uniqueness and sufficiency of Christ (Col. 2:18),
as it shifts the focus off of Christ onto other experiences and other
beings. Paul’s solution was “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly” the
word is the revelation of Him who is our sufficiency, and the Holy Spirit
accompanies the Word He wrote. It is God’s word that we are to know this is
where the power of the Spirit is. There is not need to anticipate
encountering angels when we are focused on Christ, especially receiving
power or revelation from them.

In John’s gospel and in his epistles, he countered heretical teaching that
also included Gnosticism. John concentrates on it the most in his Gospel--
that God actually did become flesh. Every second letter in the Scripture is
to counter a false teaching that has crept in and challenged what was
already taught, so it was necessary to write another letter. I John directly
confronts the Gnostic influence.

This became a serious issue even after the apostles, as we read numerous
refutations of the Gnostics by the early church fathers that were
theologians and apologists. Some of the more important ones are Irenaeus,
Against Heresies; Hippolytus, Refutations of All Heresies; Epiphanius,
Panarion; and Tertullian, Against Marcion. Irenaeus (A.D. 130-200), who had
firsthand experience of Gnostic teaching, called those who blaspheme the
Creator “agents of Satan”( Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.26.2). Hippolytus,
in a graphic description of certain Gnostics who called themselves the
Naasenes (from the Hebrew nahas, “snake”) or Ophites (from the Greek ophis,
“snake”), who were worshipers of the serpent. Because they received secret
knowledge as the serpent offered to them what he offered Eve in Genesis.
Much like the Mormon church teaches today, that the Serpent making man fall
gave him the opportunity to be a god.

Iraneaus took the time to research and read their writings and spoke with
them became their greatest opponent debating them. He wrote, “These men
falsify the oracles of God and prove themselves evil interpreters of the
good word of revelation. They also overthrow the faith of many, by drawing
them away, under a pretense of [superior] knowledge, from Him who rounded
and adorned the universe; as if, forsooth, They had something more excellent
and sublime to reveal, than that God who created the heaven and the earth,
and all things that are therein” (Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1).

This certainly can fit into the genre' of today's Christianity. The Gnostics
thought that one must directly experience the spirit to learn the truth,
this being apart from the word. Stepping over into the supernatural,
experience becomes the teacher and gives them real knowledge. What was and
is now being taught is spirit to spirit communication that is completely
outside the Biblical revelation given by the apostles.

There were many facets to Gnosticism and we can find its echoing sound
inside the churches walls even today.

The Gnostics did not employ the mind. In a video from May 1994, Rodney
Howard-Browne laid hands on a woman and encouraged her to “Step over, step
over, step over, step over into the realm of the supernatural. Step over out
of the realm of reason into the realm of glory.” Another time he said, (“get
out of your minds step over into the realm of the spirit of God.”) This is
an encouragement of Gnosticism. Who would encourage a person not to think
analytically? When you hear to put your mind on hold; ignore reason; step
over into some kind of supernatural realm it is promoting mysticism, and
contradicts everything Scripture teaches about true spiritual knowledge and
discernment. We cannot learn God’s truth without using our mind. We are one
unit this is why we are told to love and worship with all our heart,
strength, mind and soul.

Where can we identify its practices inside the church today? This Gnostic
Jesus was poured out in the new wine by Rodney Browne who began to rise to
prominence in the early 90’s, Benny Hinn inaugurated him at one of his
meetings telling him to release the anointing of laughter on the people.
(the laughter anointing just occurred at Hinn's meeting in Hawaii Jan.11
2002)

For a Gnostic to ascend to commune with the perfect invisible God. Bordering
on the macabre the master would lead the disciple in a prayer-chant of long
vowel sounds and nonsense words: “Zoxathazo a oo ee o0o eee o00o ee
00000000000 00000 uuuuu 000000000000 000 (p.33 Gnostic Empire Strikes Back,
Peter Jones).

The Gospel of the Egyptians, has the imperishable name: “Ie ieus eo ou eo
oua! Really truly, O Yessus Mazareus Yessedekeus, O living water, O child of
the child, O glorious name, really, truly, aion o on, iiii eeee eeee oo oo
uuuu oooo asaa {a}, really, truly, ei aasa oooo, O existing one who sees the
aeons! Really, truly, aee eee iiii uuuuuu ooooooo, who is eternally eternal,
really, truly, iea aio, in the heart, who exists, a aei eis aei, ei o ei, eo
os ei . . . Thou art what Thou art, Thou art who Thou art!” (Nag Hammadi
Library, 204).

In the Kabbala unveiled is a chart with 72 names of angels angel 12 is hho
angel 26 Haa angel 71 Hil --when the name of these deities are combined with
the tettragrammaton in the 4 worlds of the Kabbala. Angel 41 haha angel 62
yaha angel 71 haiai. And when the name of these are spoken they sound very
similar to what was going on in Rodney Browne's services as he preps people
to laugh and has them drink in the new wine. Browne's chant “Fill, ho ho
hehe fill... haha haha hehe fil ho ho fill heha fill huho fill hahha fill
hehe hahahaho.” (ad infinitum) Whether he is aware of this is unknownl, but
it does bring the results desired.

It was this mantra that many learned to repeat in these meetings that made
them incoherent intoxicated from the new wine. The body heat would increase
paralysis would set in much like one experiences in Kundalini yoga. Even in
Kundalini yoga the fifth located in the throat has a sound vibration of HA
(Bernaed Gunther Energy Ecstasy p.22) The guru can touch chakra points on
the forehead and the stomach to pass along the power to the recipient. Is
this all coincidence or are there real powers working through all this? They
certainly have been with the gurus and others into other religions and
spiritual practices.

The Gnostics used allegorical interpretations, spiritualizing literal
meanings in the Scripture. There was an inner and an outer meaning to the
Scripture (such as Rosicrucian's, and Masonry practice). Literal method of
interpretation was abandoned and in its place was hearing and interacting
with the Spirit alone. They received direct revelation from the Spirit which
was supposed to be superior to the Word.

Spirits masquerade as God or Jesus all the time. A Voice that was supposed
to be Jesus spoke to Dr. Helen Schucman, a Jewish atheist and psychologist
in 1965 in A Course in Miracles, that is an illusion, and sin is the
illusion that separates us from our own innate divinity, our own godhood.
This voice said to “Forget your dreams of sin and guilt and come with me,”
the denial of the Cross is evident if there is no sin, Jesus Christ as
Savior becomes meaningless. Echoing the Gnostics her Jesus declares, “It is
impossible to kill the Son of God.”

This spiritual knowledge was revelation that brought salvation to the
Gnostics. K. Copeland states “The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said,
“Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip
you up.' He said, 'Think this way--a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own
domain.' And I threw my Bible down...like that. I said, 'What?' He said, 'A
born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.'
He said, 'You are the very image, the very copy of that one.' I said,
'Goodness, gracious sakes alive!' And I began to see what had gone on in
there, and I said, 'Well now you don't mean, you couldn't dare mean, that I
could have done the same thing?' He said, 'Oh yeah, if you'd had the
knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing,
cause you're a reborn man too.” (K. Copeland, Substitution and
Identification, K. Copeland Ministries, 1989, audiotape #00- 0202, Side B)

Notice God is saying if you had the same knowledge you could have defeated
Satan in hell. It wasn’t that Jesus was the chosen one, the Christ, but that
we all are what he is, we just need this knowledge and we can do all that he
can. This was exactly what the Gnostics taught in the early church.

Benny Hinn who is the ultimate example of Gnosticism with a Christian
covering explains his new revelation knowledge” on the “rebirth” of Christ
in hell: “My, you know, whoosh! The Holy Ghost is just showing me some
stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth-it’s, it’s just heavy
right now on me…He’s [referring to Jesus] in the underworld now. God isn’t
there, the Holy Ghost isn’t there, and the Bible says He was begotten. Do
you know what the word begotten means? It means reborn. Do you want another
shocker? Have you been begotten? So was He. Don’t let anyone deceive you.
Jesus was reborn. You say, ‘What are you talking about?’ He was reborn. He
had to be reborn, If He was not reborn, I could not be reborn, Jesus was
born again.” (Benny Hinn, Our Position ‘In Christ,’ Part 1, Orlando
Christian Center, FL. 1991), videotape #TV-254.)

Notice he says don't let anyone deceive you, insinuating this is absolute
truth. Jesus was reborn just as we were. This is crucial, was Jesus reborn
when only sinners need to be reborn again. Because ones spirit that is dead
to God and they have no relationship with him there is the necessity to have
the new birth. There are literally hundreds of examples such as this one in
Hinn’s ministry. Hinn's ministry is operational by Gnostic type revelations
of “God said”, “the spirit showed me.”

In a similar fashion to the word faith teaching the Gospel of Thomas, begins
by saying: “These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and
which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down . . . Whoever finds the interpretation
of these sayings will not experience death." In other words if you really
know these words, then no sickness or death will befall you. This extreme
can be found in the latter rain teachings as some have taught they will
become immortal

Today we have a new gnostic awakening that is taking place all over the
Christian Church!! It is being called various names such as “revival”,
“renewal”, even “transformation”, “the power of God” but it is far removed
Scripture and no different than the Gnostic doctrine once practiced early
on. We need to comprehend the extent of this gnostic influence today: Seeing
it for what it is will help you withstand the deception that is now taking
place. But you must see it for what it is or you will be carried away by it.
I do not see any more middle ground on this issue, it will increase even
more.

In the Gnostic view of spirituality has man ascending to different levels,
which it fostered a spiritual superiority through receiving visions,
revelations, communications with angels, insight by God speaking directly
and giving unknown doctrines; regularly in long conversations with its
participants and giving doctrines that are not found in the Scripture.

We have heard the argument that “the man with an experience is never at the
mercy of a man with an argument” This is what we are confronted in
Mormonism, no matter what objective proof is shown to a Mormon, they rely on
their subjective “burning in the bosom” experience and ignore what the Bible
states as objective truth. Beliefs and systems of thought came from personal
experience but this does not mean they are from God or of the truth.

For those who have begun to practice their Christianity like this, it
becomes very difficult to make sense to them why it is wrong. Because they
cannot understand the truth from the word, they are unable, incapable to
read or hear the word in its correct interpretation, its always outside the
Biblical context and meaning. It means only what they want it to mean and
that is subject to change at their own whim. Instead they have trained
themselves to look to an experience and feelings to validate what they
perceive as the truth. They can no longer follow logic through to its
conclusion because they are not intellectually attentive, and the words that
we are familiar with do not mean the same thing to them.

Today we are told that we are going into higher levels by numerous movers
and shakers of the new wave of the spirit: having Christ and his spirit is
not enough one must come into greater experiences of the spirit to be with
what is happening in the new thing. Normal worship is not enough, there must
be power to shake the heavenlies and destroy Satan's strongholds. We must
come to a new level to have power to do signs and wonders. This is Gnostic
talk. Levels were never associated with Christianity but they were of
Gnosticism. There is no one who has these levels incorporated into their
theological position than Rick Joyner who speaks of levels of anointing. He
believes the church is moving into a “new level”. he explains, “There will
be a. special anointing present for commissioning, confirming commission,
imparting spiritual gifts, and stirring up again spiritual gift that have
been dormant for a time,” 'There will be a special anointing released for
mobilizing the army of the Lord.” and 'There will be an impartation of
strategic vision ... to boldly march against the greatest strongholds of our
time ... This army of which Joel speaks is about to be revealed ... They
will take cities. They will burst through the enemy's strongholds and take
houses (families). The very heavens and the earth are about to shake because
of this great army ... the time has come.” (The Morning Star, Prophetic
Bulletin, August 1994)

In his the book the Final Quest which is all about his vision Joyner
describes himself ascending the multilevel Holy Mountain, above lower
‘levels' of truth with which other Christians are content with such as
Salvation,” “Sanctification,” “Prayer,” “Faith,” etc. these are the lower
levels. As he climbs, the mountain he learns new truths, gets new weapons
and is at a greater vantage point to kill the Vultures and other demonic
creatures that are coming after him.

He even meets an angel called WISDOM, who teaches him to rise to the third
heaven and this angel we later find is Jesus.

“Wisdom” which is “Sophia” the Greek word for wisdom was adored by some,
and the church of Santa Sophia (Holy Wisdom) was built in Constantinople in
the 6th century.

Remembering that the Gnostic ascent is to discover the Christ-spirit within,
read this quote from the book the Vision. Where wisdom tell Rick Joyner “You
are still lacking something very important. You must yet have a great
revelation of the King. Even though you have climbed to the top of the
mountain, and received from every truth along the way, and even though you
have stood in the Garden of God, tasted of His unconditional love, and have
seen His Son many times now, you still only understand a part of the whole
counsel of God, and that only superficially.”

“The Lord dwells within you. You have taught this many times, but now you
must live it, for you have eaten of the Tree of Life.” The angel then began
to lead me back to the gate [out of the Garden of Paradise]. I protested
that I did not want to leave. Looking surprised, the angel took me by the
shoulders and looked me in the eyes. That is when I recognized him as the
angel, Wisdom. “You never have to leave this garden. This garden is in your
heart because the Creator Himself is within you.”

On p.43 “I then looked past him to the Tree of Life. I had a compulsion to
grab all of the fruit that I could before leaving. Knowing my thoughts,
Wisdom gently shook me. “No. Even this fruit, gathered in fear, would go
bad. This fruit and this tree are within you because He is in you. You must
believe.”

Yet the Word of God tells us another story. It says that, with the Holy
Spirit as our Guide not an angel who reveals secrets we can know what God
has revealed through His Word. We do not need to discover inner wisdom by
some esoteric route. Climbing up levels of knowledge to have greater
revelations. So what are we to make of all this?

In the Gnostic Empire Strikes back by Peter Jones a Christian refuting the
Gnostic teaching he says this “experience is the way to perfection and
knowledge. Gnostic believers are “saved” when they realize who they are-a
part of the divine; possessing within themselves the kingdom; capable of
anything; and untrammeled by human traditions, creational structures, or
divine laws. p.26.

Theosophist and Anti Christian Joseph Campbell, in The Power of Myth,
explains the ascension to mean that Christ “has gone inward . . . to the
kingdom of heaven within. (Douglas R. Groothuis, “The Shamanized Jesus,”
Christianity Today, April 29, 1991, 20.)

There is a fine line between the truth and error in all this. If truth is to
be found within, it can be found anywhere, so long as it agrees with the
subjective experience of a Gnostic.

Irenaeus observed: “they adduce an untold multitude of apocryphal and
spurious writings, which they have composed.”

Some of the Gnostic documents are Letter to Rheginus, Treatise on the Three
Natures, Apocalypse of Adam, the Gospel of Matthias, Acts of Peter, and Acts
of Thomas. The Apocryphon of James, The Acts of Peter, the twelve apostles,
the treatise on the resurrection, three editions of the Apocryphon of John
with the creation story reinterpreted. In the early church there were
so-called infancy gospels that were written to fill in the details of the
early unrecorded years of the life of Christ. “The Birth of Mary,” a work
written in the middle of the second century; “The Protoevangelium of James,”
written about the same time; the first “Gospel of Infancy,” composed about
A.D. 400; which narrates the birth of Mary to innocents. Theses were stories
circulating at the beginning of the second century all the way through the
fifth century. These works include stories of Jesus forming clay figures of
animals and birds which He makes walk, fly, and eat. Another account has a
child who runs into Jesus falls down dead. These examples and representative
of the fanciful nature of the accounts. It has been proven that Muslims have
taken these stories from these apocryphal writings.

It was the apostle Paul who warned in Galatians chapter 1 “if we or angel
from heaven brings any other gospel, they are accursed. Notice that he
includes he himself among the “we” as the apostles, making the point that
anyone can find themselves removed from the truth if they do not hold fast
to the truth. They, the apostles held themselves to a higher standard. So
even a witness of Christ in the early church can be subject to this.

There were three categories of writings in the early centuries the Greek
words were Homologumena, Antilogumena, Notha.

Homologumena = all books accepted by the entire church east and west.

Antilogumena= books accepted by some of the church these were disputed books
because they were not familiar with them, but they were accepted later.

Notha= writings claiming inspiration but were false. There were false books
circulating by authors who claimed to be an apostle or penned an apostles
name to them. Many of them were Gnostics, they were considered false because
it contradicted the writings previously delivered. They as the church had to
make judgments on so-called writings. Today its no different we have to make
judgments; except these are in books, tapes, videos and crusades. All these
are to be compared to what is already delivered.

We're to discern and recognize who are true teachers and false teachers ...
Believers are to use discernment -it’s a command and if you are not looking
to discern, your being disobedient. We don’t make a judgment on the power or
experiences they give, but by what they teach.
thomas_blood
2003-08-03 14:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Sumner
Aleister Crowley was a famous occultist (1875 - 1947). Michael Crowley (born
sometime in the 20th century) is the leader of an organisation claiming
amongst many others to be the true Golden Dawn. Vivianne Crowley (again born
sometime in the 20th century) is a Wiccan High Priestess and author.
They all practiced or practice the occult. They all have a similar name.
They are all one and the same person!!!
This is of course a ridiculous notion, but it uses the exact same (lack of)
logic as the justification given for claiming that Jesus Christ and Joshua
Ben Pandira, his namesake from a hundred years previously, are in fact the
same person.
AS
http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/
some people don't know this, but "jesus" was a common name in that time
and place.

thomas_blood
Ironywaves
2003-08-03 15:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by Alex Sumner
Aleister Crowley was a famous occultist (1875 - 1947). Michael Crowley (born
sometime in the 20th century) is the leader of an organisation claiming
amongst many others to be the true Golden Dawn. Vivianne Crowley (again born
sometime in the 20th century) is a Wiccan High Priestess and author.
They all practiced or practice the occult. They all have a similar name.
They are all one and the same person!!!
This is of course a ridiculous notion, but it uses the exact same (lack of)
logic as the justification given for claiming that Jesus Christ and Joshua
Ben Pandira, his namesake from a hundred years previously, are in fact the
same person.
AS
http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/
some people don't know this, but "jesus" was a common name in that time
and place.
thomas_blood
It still is. I've met several guys named Jesus. [pronounced "Hey Zeus"] But
not all of them make it into the New Testament *and* the Talmud.
Dockery

http://www.angelfire.com/al2/dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 20:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
some people don't know this, but "jesus" was a common name in
that
time
Post by thomas_blood
and place.
thomas_blood
Another lie? Nobody named "jesus" ever existed in that time and
place.
There is at least one other mentioned in the New Testament itself -
i.e.
Barabbas, who in some translations is referred to as "Jesus
Barabbas".
The word "Jesus" itself is a graecisation of "Yeshua" or "Joshua".
It's also another word for Dionysus.



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zayton
2003-08-04 04:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by thomas_blood
some people don't know this, but "jesus" was a common name in
that
time
Post by thomas_blood
and place.
thomas_blood
Another lie? Nobody named "jesus" ever existed in that time and
place.
There is at least one other mentioned in the New Testament itself -
i.e.
Barabbas, who in some translations is referred to as "Jesus
Barabbas".
The word "Jesus" itself is a graecisation of "Yeshua" or "Joshua".
It's also another word for Dionysus.
No. It isn't. . Jesus and Dionysus are both distinctly Different _Greek_
names.

Joe
zayton
2003-08-04 04:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Yes, you are confused. The Jesus Cult stole many of their ideas from
the worship of the Dionysus/Bacchus Godman, who was crucified. The
name "jesus" is also the greek word for Dionysus.
DIONYSUS _IS_ A GREEK NAME YOU FLAMING IDIOT!!!!!!!!!



Now look what you did. You made me shout.

Joe
Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by zayton
Yes, you are confused. The Jesus Cult stole many of their ideas from
the worship of the Dionysus/Bacchus Godman, who was crucified. The
name "jesus" is also the greek word for Dionysus.
DIONYSUS _IS_ A GREEK NAME YOU FLAMING IDIOT!!!!!!!!!
Now look what you did. You made me shout.
Joe

LoL. Next Maxie will be writing about how the Jews ripped off the Kabbalah
from the Temple Of isis, but couldn't carry out the entire thing. She a
troll for Isis, gotta love her... *sigh*
Dockery

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/isis-House
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 07:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by zayton
Yes, you are confused. The Jesus Cult stole many of their ideas from
the worship of the Dionysus/Bacchus Godman, who was crucified.
The
Post by zayton
name "jesus" is also the greek word for Dionysus.
DIONYSUS _IS_ A GREEK NAME YOU FLAMING IDIOT!!!!!!!!!
You're a moron, Joe. As usual.

The name Jesus is also the greek word for Dionysus, "Iasius".

http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/iasion.html

Iasius, Iasion etc.

We saw above that Iasion is sometimes called Iasius, in fact there are
several variants of the name including Aetion and Eetion - we know all
these names refer to the same person because of the context. Consider
a fragment of the Catalogue of Women:

...Electra....was subject to the dark-clouded Son of Cronos and bare
Dardanus....and Eetion....who once greatly loved rich-haired Demeter.
And cloud-gathering Zeus was wroth and smote him, Eetion, and laid him
low with a flaming thunderbolt, because he sought to lay hands upon
rich-haired Demeter...

Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns and Homerica, The Catalogues of Women Eoiae
(fragments)
Fragment #102 (Uncertain Position), Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1359 fr. 2
(early 3rd cent. A.D.), (ll. 5-16):

It is clear that we are hearing about Iasion (from the context),
showing Eetion = Iasius = Iasion. These names are all equivalent like
Richard is equivalent to Dick and Rick, or William to Bill, Will, and
Willy.

The name Iasion or Iasius (whilst perhaps not directly equivalent) is
suggestively similar to Iesous.

This Greek name Iesous, in English, is Jesus.


The Sacrificed Son-of-God

The Sacrificed Son-of-God was a common figure in these times and
places, his story being found under several different names: Dionysus,
Tammuz, Attis, Adonis - and Iasius of course, for this is the Type of
his story. The essential characteristics of the story are a
Son-of-God, born of a virgin, tragically killed, but rising again,
with his 'death' bringing fruitfulness to mankind.

Each different variant has some different local characteristics,
consider one variant: that of Attis, the consort of the Phrygian
Cybele. Attis was the Good Shepherd, in some versions the son of a
Virgin Nana. The festival of his death and resurrection took place
from March 22nd to 25th when a pine tree was felled and an effigy of
Attis hung it - i.e. Attis is slain and hung on a tree (c.f. Acts V
30), after three days he rises again to much celebration, the
initiates having their sins washed in blood and being thus "born
again" [Weigall, Paganism in our Christianity]

The common or central symbols to this sacrificed son of god story
included:

Wedding, Great Mother, Wine, Grain, Holy Child, Descent into Hell.

The Fathers Comments

The Church Fathers knew about the connections between Jesus and these
other pagan figures. St Jerome noted that the supposed birth place of
Jesus was actually an earlier shrine to Tammuz/Adonis! The Vatican
Hill was apparently the very centre of the ancient Attis cult
[Hepding, Attis].

Clement of Alexandria, the 2nd century Church Father refers both to
Eetion and Iasion :

Perish, then, the man who was the author of this imposture amongst
men, be he Dardanus, who taught the mysteries of the mother of the
gods, or Eetion, who instituted the orgies and mysteries of
Samothracians.

...

"The female deities stayed each in the house, for shame," says Homer;
the goddesses blushing, for modesty's sake, to look on Aphrodité when
she had been guilty of adultery. But these are more passionately
licentious, bound in the chains of adultery; Eos having disgraced
herself with Tithonus, Selene with Endymion, Nereis with Aeacus,
Thetis with Peleus, Demeter with Iasion, Persephatta with Adonis

Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, Ch II

The 2nd reference to Iasion is usually translated as "Jason" in
English - showing how the context determines the transliteration used,
often confusing the issue as to who is meant. It is not clear that
Clement recognised that Eetion and Iasion were the same figures, nor
is it clear that he saw the connection with Jesus.

Foundation Stone

At the beginning of the Roman Empire (the time leading up the
formation of Christianity).

Rome ruled the world with a highly organised, and hierarchical
administration which depended on a large, educated and generally
literate middle-class.

The Romans looked back to the ancient Greeks and the mythic Trojans
for their cultural roots, particularly in religious matters.

Romans were a profoundly superstitious lot, and saw the gods as real
beings who sometimes acted directly in the affairs of men.

Most would have heard of Iasion and would know the basic outlines of
the story:

He is the Son of God (the highest God)
His mother is a mortal virgin, known for her purity
He is a healer
He brought divine revelation to mankind
He died tragically
Yet he rose again, and ascended to be with God
Key symbols include: Wedding, Wine, Mother, Grain, Holy Child,
Related themes include: Pine tree, Child Effigy, Breaking up and
eating the divine body, Descent into Hell.
Now, who does this sound like?

Enter Paul

At this stage Paul enters preaching the word of Jesus, the Son of God,
who brings divine revelation to mankind - bringing revelation to Paul
himself in a life-changing experience. Paul's audience (at least the
non-Jews) responded to Paul's Jesus because it was the well-known
pagan story of the sacrificed son-of-god. This story was one of the
main religious (i.e. teaching) allegories of the period. The Romans
were particularly ready to accept a system which offered personal
salvation through initiation (open to all!) into the mysteries of the
great Iasion/Iasius (Paul use the name Iesous, suggestively similar)
because they already knew this Iasius/Jesus as the initiator of
Orpheus, Hercules and Castor and Pollux as well as many in the Roman
elite. In fact Rome was the centre of a Jesus/Iasius cult and they
believed his family to responsible for the founding of Troy, Rome and
the mysteries.

Paul's inspired spiritual teachings, based on one of the most powerful
allegorical myths of the day, offering initiation to all into the
mysteries of the very founder of the ancient Greek mysteries, was a
very powerful offering indeed.



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zayton
2003-08-04 09:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by zayton
Yes, you are confused. The Jesus Cult stole many of their ideas
from
Post by zayton
the worship of the Dionysus/Bacchus Godman, who was crucified.
The
Post by zayton
name "jesus" is also the greek word for Dionysus.
DIONYSUS _IS_ A GREEK NAME YOU FLAMING IDIOT!!!!!!!!!
You're a moron, Joe. As usual.
The name Jesus is also the greek word for Dionysus, "Iasius".
I say again that both Dionysis and Iasus ARE Greekwords and have no
connection with one another. Not is that what the author seems to be saying
in most places. He notes that in one myth one name is given for Demeter's
lover and in another myth in another culture at another time, another name
is given, so "they must be the same individual." Not that they are two forms
of the same name, but that they are two names for the same individual. Then,
apparently forgetting what his own arguement was, he treats them as two
forms of the same name. But even then what he says about the name Iasous is
that it is NOT a form of the same name, but a similar name.
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/iasion.html
I can't believe that I did it, but I actually took time to read through this
crap.

In many cases, the materials he quotes lend no support to what he seems to
think they prove. There are paragraphs of wild speculation with no
indication of what is even imagined to be a source. and no mention in all of
it of a lot of what appears in the summary.
Ironywaves
2003-11-15 16:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by zayton
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by zayton
Yes, you are confused. The Jesus Cult stole many of their ideas
from
Post by zayton
the worship of the Dionysus/Bacchus Godman, who was crucified.
The
Post by zayton
name "jesus" is also the greek word for Dionysus.
DIONYSUS _IS_ A GREEK NAME YOU FLAMING IDIOT!!!!!!!!!
You're a moron, Joe. As usual.
The name Jesus is also the greek word for Dionysus, "Iasius".
I say again that both Dionysis and Iasus ARE Greekwords and have no
connection with one another. Not is that what the author seems to be saying
in most places. He notes that in one myth one name is given for Demeter's
lover and in another myth in another culture at another time, another name
is given, so "they must be the same individual." Not that they are two forms
of the same name, but that they are two names for the same individual. Then,
apparently forgetting what his own arguement was, he treats them as two
forms of the same name. But even then what he says about the name Iasous is
that it is NOT a form of the same name, but a similar name.
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/iasion.html
I can't believe that I did it, but I actually took time to read through this
crap.
In many cases, the materials he quotes lend no support to what he seems to
think they prove. There are paragraphs of wild speculation with no
indication of what is even imagined to be a source. and no mention in all of
it of a lot of what appears in the summary.
And, of course, the name Jesus is a pretty common among name with Latinos...
and nobody thinks they're all the same guy.
Will

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066026/trailers-screenplay-E11008-13-2
Will-Dockery
2024-05-03 13:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by whatnext
for many it does not matter if the historical Jesus was real o
not
Post by whatnext
The fictional hero of the gnostics is the true "Jesus"
The Jesus tha
Post by whatnext
preaches goodness and love. If Jesus did not preach goodness an
lov
Post by whatnext
Jesus would be nothing. it is goodness and love most peopl
reall
Post by whatnext
want to see rule the world. not some person called Jesus in th
pas
news:<bd2f3245>..
Post by whatnext
The earliest secular literary evidence for a religion based o
the ma
Post by whatnext
we call Jesus comes from many decades after Jesus' suppose
deat
Post by whatnext
(from about 70 C.E.)
[...
One individual who fits the scanty evidence is a Jesus or Jesu
o
Post by whatnext
Joshua ben Pantera, Pentera or Pandera
If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dea
Se
Post by whatnext
Scrolls, But if they really d
refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they ad
evidence t
Post by whatnext
the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is really Jesus ben Pantera
possibl
Post by whatnext
the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who died in 88 B.C.E
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htma7e
From the archives, an early discussion and thoughts on Jesus


This is a response to the post seen at
http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=657804765#65780476

thomas_blood
2003-08-03 23:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
some people don't know this, but "jesus" was a common name in that
time
Post by thomas_blood
and place.
thomas_blood
Another lie? Nobody named "jesus" ever existed in that time and
place.
Your lies are transparent.
like i care about your opinion.

t_b
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-03 23:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
Post by thomas_blood
some people don't know this, but "jesus" was a common name in that
time
Post by thomas_blood
and place.
thomas_blood
Another lie? Nobody named "jesus" ever existed in that time and
place.
Your lies are transparent.
like i care about your opinion.
You obviously care a great deal, otherwise why would you be
obsessively replying to every post I make in this thread?



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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 05:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by thomas_blood
some people don't know this, but "jesus" was a common name in that
time
Post by thomas_blood
and place.
thomas_blood
Another lie? Nobody named "jesus" ever existed in that time and
place.
Your lies are transparent.
Damn, you're an idiot, Maxie.
Dockery
Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Damn, you're an idiot, Maxie.
Dockery
I'm not the idiot who claims "Jesus" was a kickboxer, you are.
A different idiot, then, but plainly an idiot.
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 06:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Ironywaves
Damn, you're an idiot, Maxie.
Dockery
I'm not the idiot who claims "Jesus" was a kickboxer, you are.
A different idiot, then, but plainly an idiot.
Dockery
I'll play. Why do you call Jesus a kickboxer?


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 06:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
I'll play. Why do you call Jesus a kickboxer?
Mithras was a kickboxer, and Jesus copped the idea?
Dockery
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 06:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
I'll play. Why do you call Jesus a kickboxer?
Mithras was a kickboxer, and Jesus copped the idea?
Dockery
Contradicting yourself on a daily basis, huh Dockery?


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 07:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Mithras was a kickboxer, and Jesus copped the idea?
Dockery
Contradicting yourself on a daily basis, huh Dockery?
No, just playing along with your silly game.
Dockery

http://www.hotornot.com/r/?eid=NER8GQR&key=TVL
Maxie P. Diddly
2003-08-04 07:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Mithras was a kickboxer, and Jesus copped the idea?
Dockery
Contradicting yourself on a daily basis, huh Dockery?
No, just playing along with your silly game.
Dockery
Hey, I'm playing your game. Go fish!


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Ironywaves
2003-08-04 07:27:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Post by Maxie P. Diddly
Post by Ironywaves
Mithras was a kickboxer, and Jesus copped the idea?
Dockery
Contradicting yourself on a daily basis, huh Dockery?
No, just playing along with your silly game.
Dockery
Hey, I'm playing your game. Go fish!
I like games. I'll play yours, you can play mine. Old maid!
Dockery

http://www.hotornot.com/r/?eid=NER8GQR&key=TVL
M.H.Benders
2003-08-03 14:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Sumner
Aleister Crowley was a famous occultist (1875 - 1947). Michael Crowley (born
sometime in the 20th century) is the leader of an organisation claiming
amongst many others to be the true Golden Dawn. Vivianne Crowley (again born
sometime in the 20th century) is a Wiccan High Priestess and author.
They all practiced or practice the occult. They all have a similar name.
They are all one and the same person!!!
This is of course a ridiculous notion, but it uses the exact same (lack of)
logic as the justification given for claiming that Jesus Christ....
I don't think it's a ridiculous notion at all. They all wrote bad verse,
they all believed in iffy stuff, and they probably all had beerbellies
and lived in the 20th century.

Enough reason to practically consider them one and the same person.


M.H.Benders
thomas_blood
2003-08-03 16:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.H.Benders
Post by Alex Sumner
Aleister Crowley was a famous occultist (1875 - 1947). Michael Crowley (born
sometime in the 20th century) is the leader of an organisation claiming
amongst many others to be the true Golden Dawn. Vivianne Crowley (again born
sometime in the 20th century) is a Wiccan High Priestess and author.
They all practiced or practice the occult. They all have a similar name.
They are all one and the same person!!!
This is of course a ridiculous notion, but it uses the exact same (lack of)
logic as the justification given for claiming that Jesus Christ....
I don't think it's a ridiculous notion at all. They all wrote bad verse,
they all believed in iffy stuff, and they probably all had beerbellies
and lived in the 20th century.
Enough reason to practically consider them one and the same person.
M.H.Benders
this passes for humor in benders book.


thomas_blood
Will Dockery
2003-08-04 16:58:05 UTC
Permalink
From: Strider

Jesus in the Talmud:

Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ

While it is the standard disinformation practice of apologists for the
Talmud to deny that it contains any scurrilous references to Jesus Christ,
certain Orthodox Jewish organizations are more forthcoming and admit that
the Talmud not only mentions Jesus but disparages him (as a sorcerer and a
demented sex freak). These orthodox Jewish organizations make this admission
perhaps out of the belief that Jewish supremacy is so well-established in
the modern world that they need not concern themselves with adverse
reactions.

For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch
group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement,
complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray
into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose
of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is
mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and
refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures
that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the
Bible (Shabbos 104b).

End quote from http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm (Lubavitch website) June 20,
2000.

[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this
statement from the Lubavitch"Noah's Covenant Website," as it appeared on
their website at http://www.noahide.com on June 20, 2000, in the event that
denials are later issued and the statement itself suppressed].

Let us examine further some of these anti-Christ Talmud passages:

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu "the
Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is taught that on
the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the
proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has
practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry...He was an enticer
and of such thou shalt not pity or condone."

Kallah 51a."The elders were once sitting in the gate when two young lads
passed by; one covered his head and the other uncovered his head. Of him who
uncovered his head Rabbi Eliezer remarked that he is a bastard. Rabbi Joshua
remarked that he is the son of a niddah (a child conceived during a woman's
menstrual period). Rabbi Akiba said that he is both a bastard and a son of a
niddah.

"They said, 'What induced you to contradict the opinion of your colleagues?'
He replied, "I will prove it concerning him." He went to the lad's mother
and found her sitting in the market selling beans.

"He said to her, 'My daughter, if you will answer the question I will put to
you, I will bring you to the world to come.' (eternal life). She said to
him, 'Swear it to me.'

"Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart,
said to her, 'What is the status of your son?' She replied, 'When I entered
the bridal chamber I was niddah (menstruating) and my husband kept away from
me; but my best man had intercourse with me and this son was born to me.'
Consequently the child was both a bastard and the son of a niddah.

"It was declared, '..Blessed be the God of Israel Who Revealed His Secret to
Rabbi Akiba..."

In addition to the theme that God rewards clever liars, the preceding Talmud
discussion is actually about Jesus Christ (the bastard boy who "uncovered
his head" and was conceived in the filth of menstruation). The boy's
adulterous mother in this Talmud story is the mother of Christ, Blessed Mary
(called Miriam and sometimes, Miriam the hairdresser, in the Talmud).


"The Editio Princeps of the complete Code of Talmudic Law, Maimonides'
Mishneh Torah -- replete not only with the most offensive precepts against
all Gentiles but also with explicit attacks on Christianity and on Jesus
(after whose name the author adds piously, 'May the name of the wicked
perish')... --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21.

"The Talmud contains a few explicit references to Jesus...These references
are certainly not complimentary...There seems little doubt that the account
of the execution of Jesus on the eve of Passover does refer to the Christian
Jesus...The passage in which Jesus' punishment in hell is described also
seems to refer to the Christian Jesus. It is a piece of anti-Christian
polemic dating from the post-70 CE period..." --Hyam Maccoby, Judaism on
Trial, pp. 26-27.

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court
for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical
authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are
quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the
Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite
seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in
addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name
'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular
tradition still persists...

"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an acronym for
the curse, 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which is used as an
extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox Jews (such as Neturey
Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as 'Herzl Jesus' and I have found in
religious zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser Jesus" and more
recently 'Arafat Jesus." --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish
Religion, pp. 97- 98, 118.
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