Ginsberg's Rohrshach poems

[George J. Dance]

Exhibit A

Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg

Exhibit B

Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968

[Will Dockery]

"George J. Dance" wrote in message news:22919a54-03a9-4caa-8b03-***@googlegroups.com...

Exhibit A

Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg

Exhibit B

Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968

Mot my favorite Ginsberg poems but still of interest.

[Will Dockery]

"George J. Dance" wrote in message news:22919a54-03a9-4caa-8b03-***@googlegroups.com...

Exhibit A

Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg

Exhibit B

Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968

Agreed, not his best but worth a read.

[General Zod]

Darn weird stuff.....

[Will Dockery™]

Post by General Zod
Darn weird stuff.....

Ginsberg was an eccentric, but also recognized as one of the greatest poets America has produced:

https://pennyspoetry.fandom.com/wiki/Allen_Ginsberg

"Ginsberg's poetry was strongly influenced by modernism (specifically Ezra Pound, T. S. Eliot, Hart Crane, and most importantly Williams), Romanticism (specifically Percy Shelley and John Keats), the beat and cadence of jazz (specifically that of bop musicians such as Charlie Parker), and his Kagyu Buddhist practice and Jewish background. He considered himself to have inherited the visionary poetic mantle handed down from English poet and artist William Blake and American poet Walt Whitman. The power of Ginsberg's verse, its searching, probing focus, its long and lilting lines, as well as its New World exuberance, all echo the continuity of inspiration which he claimed..."

[Will Dockery]

Agreed with A, not his best but worth a read.

[George J. Dance]

Post by Will Dockery
Agreed with A, not his best but worth a read.

I'm glad you've revived the thread, as it's worth talking about the "Rohrshach poem" concept, that we didn't get into the last time around.

Remember the context: the three blind mice were frantically scouring the web, looking for evidence that Ginsberg was a child molester - and these were the 2 poems that Jim-Ed found. They're "shocking" and "disgusting" enough, since they're explicitly talking about sex, that's been the American taboo, and it looks clear that Ginsberg was writing to provoke that reaction. Yet I don't see any child molesting in either of them.

Hence the "Rohrshach poem" concept to explain the difference. I first thought of that back in the debate around Chuck Lysaght's "Perfect Angel," as an possible explanation of why some were convinced it was about raping (and even murdering) children, while others were convinced it wasn't. That made me think of the "Rohrshach test", where the meaning of the inkblot depended solely on the mindset of the person interpreting them, and (here's they key point) the interpretation gives information about the viewer, not about what he's viewing.

In the same way, a reader's interpretation of "Perfect Angel" (or either of Ginsberg's Exhibit A and B poem) as being about child molesting (or not) gives information about that reader, not about the poem.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Agreed with A, not his best but worth a read.

I'm glad you've revived the thread, as it's worth talking about the "Rohrshach poem" concept, that we didn't get into the last time around.
Remember the context: the three blind mice were frantically scouring the web, looking for evidence that Ginsberg was a child molester - and these were the 2 poems that Jim-Ed found. They're "shocking" and "disgusting" enough, since they're explicitly talking about sex, that's been the American taboo, and it looks clear that Ginsberg was writing to provoke that reaction. Yet I don't see any child molesting in either of them.
Hence the "Rohrshach poem" concept to explain the difference. I first thought of that back in the debate around Chuck Lysaght's "Perfect Angel," as an possible explanation of why some were convinced it was about raping (and even murdering) children, while others were convinced it wasn't. That made me think of the "Rohrshach test", where the meaning of the inkblot depended solely on the mindset of the person interpreting them, and (here's they key point) the interpretation gives information about the viewer, not about what he's viewing.
In the same way, a reader's interpretation of "Perfect Angel" (or either of Ginsberg's Exhibit A and B poem) as being about child molesting (or not) gives information about that reader, not about the poem.

That's an interesting theory, Kowalski, but one that is based upon your unspoken desire to turn "IKYABWAI" into a scientifically verifiable phenomenon, as opposed to the unimaginative childish retort that it, in fact, is.

A poem is read, and interpreted, based on its content. This interpretation can be modified (to some extent) and supported by extraneous statements made by, and/or knowledge of, its author, however, a critical reading of it will inevitably reveal a single interpretation of its meaning.

Ginsberg's "Sphincter" is explicitly about sodomy (homosexual var.). There's simply no other interpretation for passages like:

"Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -"

If, as you imply, Jim had cited this poem as evidence of Ginsberg's pedophilia, it would have been done so more in the spirit of establishing both Ginsberg's homosexuality, his fascination with sex, and his predilection for sexual abberations ("coke bottle, candle, carrot/banana & fingers -").

The implication is that Ginsberg fits the profile of someone who would be predisposed to the more shocking and offensive sexual fetishes (coprophagia, S&M, bestiality, etc.). Similarly his apparent need to express his fantasies/practices to others, and his implicit desire to shock them, evinces a stunted mentality reminiscent of a six-year old.

In short, his poem serves as anything but a character reference.

"Please Master," as has been previously noted, is clearly a piece of explicit homosexual pornography between an older man (the "Master") and a younger adept. Whether the then 42-year old Ginsberg is referring to his younger past, or whether he is fantasizing about 12-year old boys (as he claimed to do in an interview) is moot. Most likely, his poem was intended to do both.

As with "Sphincter," Ginsberg uses shockingly explicit and offensive language ("till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to/be/loved") both to shock his readers and to exhibit his sexual peccadilloes in public).

Again, this poem is anything but a character reference.

And, while there is no specific mention of pedophilia in either of the poems, they become quite damning when considered alongside of the various quotes by, and regarding, Ginsberg that had been posted here at the time: his fantasies about 13-year old boys, support of NAMBLA, etc.).

As to Lysaght's "poem," it is merely a piece of poorly-written porn. And while it never mentions the girl's age, she is young enough to require a babysitter. Legally, a 12-year old can be left at home alone, and given that many babysitters are high school students, it's unlikely that their charges would be of a similar age.


Michael Pendragon
"A favorite movie.... I read it like a comic book....."
-- George "Lady Bunny" Sulzbach, career pissbum

[Will Dockery]

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Agreed with A, not his best but worth a read.

I'm glad you've revived the thread, as it's worth talking about the "Rohrshach poem" concept, that we didn't get into the last time around.
Remember the context: the three blind mice were frantically scouring the web, looking for evidence that Ginsberg was a child molester - and these were the 2 poems that Jim-Ed found. They're "shocking" and "disgusting" enough, since they're explicitly talking about sex, that's been the American taboo, and it looks clear that Ginsberg was writing to provoke that reaction. Yet I don't see any child molesting in either of them.
Hence the "Rohrshach poem" concept to explain the difference. I first thought of that back in the debate around Chuck Lysaght's "Perfect Angel," as an possible explanation of why some were convinced it was about raping (and even murdering) children, while others were convinced it wasn't. That made me think of the "Rohrshach test", where the meaning of the inkblot depended solely on the mindset of the person interpreting them, and (here's they key point) the interpretation gives information about the viewer, not about what he's viewing.
In the same way, a reader's interpretation of "Perfect Angel" (or either of Ginsberg's Exhibit A and B poem) as being about child molesting (or not) gives information about that reader, not about the poem.

An interesting form of projection.

[Johnny Galt]

Post by George J. Dance

Post by Will Dockery
Agreed with A, not his best but worth a read.

I'm glad you've revived the thread, as it's worth talking about the "Rohrshach poem" concept, that we didn't get into the last time around.
Remember the context: the three blind mice were frantically scouring the web, looking for evidence that Ginsberg was a child molester - and these were the 2 poems that Jim-Ed found. They're "shocking" and "disgusting" enough, since they're explicitly talking about sex, that's been the American taboo, and it looks clear that Ginsberg was writing to provoke that reaction. Yet I don't see any child molesting in either of them.
Hence the "Rohrshach poem" concept to explain the difference. I first thought of that back in the debate around Chuck Lysaght's "Perfect Angel," as an possible explanation of why some were convinced it was about raping (and even murdering) children, while others were convinced it wasn't. That made me think of the "Rohrshach test", where the meaning of the inkblot depended solely on the mindset of the person interpreting them, and (here's they key point) the interpretation gives information about the viewer, not about what he's viewing.
In the same way, a reader's interpretation of "Perfect Angel" (or either of Ginsberg's Exhibit A and B poem) as being about child molesting (or not) gives information about that reader, not about the poem.

Outstanding concept....

[Will Dockery]

No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.

:)

[Tedly Schmedly]

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.

Are you saying that I'm prejudiced against no-talent bums?

[Will Dockery]

I know you'll admit that you're biased against great poets such as Charles Bukowski, Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, correct?

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
I know you'll admit that you're biased against great poets such as Charles Bukowski, Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, correct?

First off, they are not great poets.

Second, one can dislike a poet's body of work without having any biases against him.

Third, you've obviously no understanding of what "bias" actually means.

So... rather than tossing around unfounded accusations, why don't you tell us why you think "Sphincter" is a great poem?

[Will Dockery]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery
I know you'll admit that you're biased against great poets such as Charles Bukowski, Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, correct?

First off, they are not great poets

In your opinion.

Most of the rest of the world think otherwisen for example, Charles Bukowski:

https://www.ashevillepoetryreview.com/2004/issue-14/carl-sandburg-chicago-poems

"The poet Charles Bukowski... has replaced the formal, frequently stilted diction of the Pound-Eliot-Auden days with a language devoid of the affectations, devices, and mannerisms that have taken over academic verse and packed the university and commercial quarterlies with imitations of Pound and others. Without theorizing, without plans or school or manifestos. Bukowski has begun the long awaited return to a poetic language free of literary pretense and supple enough to adapt itself to whatever matter he chooses to handle... Bukowski has become one of the most original American poets, serving as the voice for an entire generation of disaffected Americans."
-John William Corrington

;)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery
I know you'll admit that you're biased against great poets such as Charles Bukowski, Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, correct?

First off, they are not great poets

In your opinion.
https://www.ashevillepoetryreview.com/2004/issue-14/carl-sandburg-chicago-poems
"The poet Charles Bukowski... has replaced the formal, frequently stilted diction of the Pound-Eliot-Auden days with a language devoid of the affectations, devices, and mannerisms that have taken over academic verse and packed the university and commercial quarterlies with imitations of Pound and others. Without theorizing, without plans or school or manifestos. Bukowski has begun the long awaited return to a poetic language free of literary pretense and supple enough to adapt itself to whatever matter he chooses to handle... Bukowski has become one of the most original American poets, serving as the voice for an entire generation of disaffected Americans."
-John William Corrington

Stop avoiding the question.

What do you find so "great" about Allen Ginsberg's "Sphincter"?

Do you "get" his"Sphincter"? Do you like his "Sphincter"? Do you think his "Sphincter" is worthy of returning to again and again and again?

[Tedly Schmedly]

Post by Will Dockery
I know you'll admit that you're biased against great poets such as Charles Bukowski, Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, correct?
:)

He has admitted his cluelessness about that style of poetry for a long time, now...

[Will Dockery]

I stated earlier that these two poems are not my favorites from Allen Ginsberg.

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

Post by Will Dockery
I stated earlier that these two poems are not my favorites from Allen Ginsberg.

But you've said that he is a "great poet."

A great poet should consistently write great poetry.

If the quality of Ginsberg's poetry is a hit-or-miss deal, you'll need to reassess his status.

[W.Dockery]

Post by Coco DeSockmonkey

Post by Will Dockery
I stated earlier that these two poems are not my favorites from Allen Ginsberg.

But you've said that he is a "great poet."

Not just me.

Allen Ginsberg is known the world over as a great American poet.

Look it up.

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Coco DeSockmonkey

Post by Will Dockery
I stated earlier that these two poems are not my favorites from Allen Ginsberg.

But you've said that he is a "great poet."

Not just me.
Allen Ginsberg is known the world over as a great American poet.
Look it up.

So you weren't posting your opinion -- you were simply second-handing an opinion that you'd pulled off of a couple of websites?

Got it, Mr. Keating.

[Will Dockery]

No, I didn't agree with you that a great poet can write nothing but great poetry.

Probably every poet has a clunker or two in his body of work.

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery
No, I didn't agree with you that a great poet can write nothing but great poetry.
Probably every poet has a clunker or two in his body of work.

I've read the complete poetic works of Poe, Tennyson, Blake, Whitman, Keats, Byron, Shelley and others, and while I prefer some of their poems over others, *all* of their poetry falls within the range of "exceptionally good" and "masterpieces."

If you can find nothing to praise about Allen Ginsberg's "Sphincter," then you are mistaken in calling him a "great" poet.

[Will Dockery]

Yet some, such as PJR, would call many of the poems on your favorites list garbage, Pendragon.

Poetry, as all art, is, after all, subjective.

:)

[Will Dockery]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery
No, I didn't agree with you that a great poet can write nothing but great poetry.
Probably every poet has a clunker or two in his body of work.

I've read the complete poetic works of Poe, Tennyson, Blake, Whitman, Keats, Byron, Shelley and others, and while I prefer some of their poems over others

Yet some, such as PJR, would call many of the poems on your favorites list garbage, Pendragon.

Poetry, as all art, is, after all, subjective.

;)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by Will Dockery
No, I didn't agree with you that a great poet can write nothing but great poetry.
Probably every poet has a clunker or two in his body of work.

I've read the complete poetic works of Poe, Tennyson, Blake, Whitman, Keats, Byron, Shelley and others, and while I prefer some of their poems over others

Yet some, such as PJR, would call many of the poems on your favorites list garbage, Pendragon.
Poetry, as all art, is, after all, subjective.

No, Will.

One's *reaction to* a given poem is subjective. The *meaning* of poem, in the vast majority of cases, is not.

My dislike of Ginsberg's poetry is subjective. However, my dislike of "Howl" does not affect its meaning in the least.

When someone says that art is subjective, they are usually referring to one's reaction to it. Some people love it -- some people hate it. That's a subjective reaction.

Unless one is specifically referring to an *abstract* work (e.g., a poem with *no* discernible meaning), they will never claim that the meaning of a poem is subjective.

[Will Dockery]

Post by Michael Pendragon
One's *reaction to* a given poem is subjective. The *meaning* of poem, in the vast majority of cases, is not

In your opinion... as T.S. Eliot explain, art (poetry) is subjective

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery

One's *reaction to* a given poem is subjective. The *meaning* of poem, in the vast majority of cases, is not

In your opinion... as T.S. Eliot explain, art (poetry) is subjective

If you aren't speaking with George, perhaps you might email Karen and ask her what Eliot meant.

Perhaps Professors Barfield and Schwimmer could clue you in (privately) as well.

[Will Dockery]

Post by Michael Pendragon

As T.S. Eliot explains, art (poetry) is subjective

If you aren't speaking with George

If George wants to give his opinion, he knows how to speak for himself.

I've given mine.

;)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by Michael Pendragon

As T.S. Eliot explains, art (poetry) is subjective

If you aren't speaking with George

If George wants to give his opinion, he knows how to speak for himself.
I've given mine.

George would never embarrass you in public, Will. Nor should you attempt to place him in such a position.

For your own sake, ask him in a private email.

[W.Dockery]

Post by Michael Pendragon
George would never embarrass you in public

George has had differing opinions from mine many times here.

;)

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Michael Pendragon
George would never embarrass you in public

George has had differing opinions from mine many times here.

There's a world of difference between disagreeing with your opinion and confirming that you're a functional illiterate who cannot understand the meaning of a sentence.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Michael Pendragon

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Michael Pendragon
George would never embarrass you in public

George has had differing opinions from mine many times here.

There's a world of difference between disagreeing with your opinion and confirming that you're a functional illiterate who cannot understand the meaning of a sentence.

A functional illiterate who cannot understand the meaning of a
sentence is not going to understand the meaning of this sentence.

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
A functional illiterate who cannot understand the meaning of a
sentence is not going to understand the meaning of this sentence.

Great, since I understood every word you just typed.

;)

[ME]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com
A functional illiterate who cannot understand the meaning of a
sentence is not going to understand the meaning of this sentence.

Great, since I understood every word you just typed.
;)

Just because you can identify the words an understand their meanings (which is doubtful) does not mean that you understand the meaning of the sentences they were used in.

[Will Dockery]

Post by ME

Post by Will Dockery
Great, since I understood every word you just typed.
;)

Just because you can identify the words an understand their meanings

Exactly.

;)

[ME]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by ME

Post by Will Dockery
Great, since I understood every word you just typed.
;)

Just because you can identify the words an understand their meanings

Exactly.
;)

Finally, you admit that you were wrong!

[Will Dockery]

Post by ME
Finally, you admit that you were wrong!

If I'm wrong, I /always/ admit it.

If I am wrong, which I am not, today.

;)

[ME]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by ME
Finally, you admit that you were wrong!

If I'm wrong, I /always/ admit it.
If I am wrong, which I am not, today.
;)

You are wrong!

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by ME

Post by Will Dockery

Post by ME
Finally, you admit that you were wrong!

If I'm wrong, I /always/ admit it.
If I am wrong, which I am not, today.
;)

You are wrong!

Seconded.

[Ted Schmedly]

Post by Michael Pendragon
Seconded.

You are biased and bigoted....

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com
A functional illiterate who cannot understand the meaning of a
sentence is not going to understand the meaning of this sentence.

Great, since I understood every word you just typed.
;)

You fail to understand the meaning of the sentence.

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
You fail to understand the meaning of the sentence.

I understood it.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com
You fail to understand the meaning of the sentence.

I understood it.
:)

Obviously not.

[Will Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com
Obviously not.

Again, in your opinion, Corey.

;)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com
Obviously not.

Again, in your opinion, Corey.
;)

It’s not an opinion. Your responses tell the truth. You didn’t understand
the meaning of the sentence, so you couldn’t respond appropriately.

[Will Dockery]

Exactly, and we just disagree, as the old song goes.

:)

[Zod]

Post by Will Dockery
Exactly, and we just disagree, as the old song goes.
:)

That's the way it goes sometimes...

[W.Dockery]

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.

Our boy Pendragon is a bigoted moron. Here's the archived exchange:

Jordy C wrote:
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"

Karen wrote:
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."

"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ

"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

"And so it goes..."

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

Out for a morning troll?

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

You just keep beating that dead horse, don't you, Will?

Sorry, troll. Nobody's taking your bait.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

Out for a morning troll?

No, just setting the record straight, Pastor Corey.
:)

Right, sure you are. Okay, carry on.
Do whatever you feel you have to do.

Not that I /have/ to do it, but I do like seeing the truth prevail.

;)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

Out for a morning troll?

No, just setting the record straight, Pastor Corey.
:)

Right, sure you are. Okay, carry on.
Do whatever you feel you have to do.

Not that I /have/ to do it, but I do like seeing the truth prevail.
;)

Not that you have to do it?
You can’t stop doing it.
You’re pathological.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

Interesting, I was just reading about Allen Ginsberg and how he changed America (our world):

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc

"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.

We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Corey.

It’s not so much that I have confidence in you
as I really don’t think much of Ginsburg at all.
Anything he could do, you could do better.

I can understand Allen Ginsberg would not be your taste in poetry.

He never rhymes, and he's rarely silly/funny.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Corey.

It’s not so much that I have confidence in you
as I really don’t think much of Ginsburg at all.
Anything he could do, you could do better.

I can understand Allen Ginsberg would not be your taste in poetry.
He never rhymes, and he's rarely silly/funny.

It sounds like you’re saying I don’t like him because he has a big nose.
You’re right that I don’t like him, but not because he has a big nose. I
have a big nose too. I don’t like him because he picked his nose in public,
and ate his boogers to just get a rise out of people. I think that’s gross.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Corey.

It’s not so much that I have confidence in you
as I really don’t think much of Ginsburg at all.
Anything he could do, you could do better.

I can understand Allen Ginsberg would not be your taste in poetry.
He never rhymes, and he's rarely silly/funny.

It sounds like you’re saying I don’t like him because he has a big nose.
You’re right that I don’t like him, but not because he has a big nose. I
have a big nose too. I don’t like him because he picked his nose in public,
and ate his boogers to just get a rise out of people. I think that’s gross.

You seem to be confusing Allen Ginsberg with Alice Cooper.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

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Post by W.Dockery

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Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Corey.

It’s not so much that I have confidence in you
as I really don’t think much of Ginsburg at all.
Anything he could do, you could do better.

I can understand Allen Ginsberg would not be your taste in poetry.
He never rhymes, and he's rarely silly/funny.

It sounds like you’re saying I don’t like him because he has a big nose.
You’re right that I don’t like him, but not because he has a big nose. I
have a big nose too. I don’t like him because he picked his nose in public,
and ate his boogers to just get a rise out of people. I think that’s gross.

You seem to be confusing Allen Ginsberg with Alice Cooper.
:)

I really had never considered the two in context of one another before,
but I can see how you could draw associations from one to the other.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Corey.

It’s not so much that I have confidence in you
as I really don’t think much of Ginsburg at all.
Anything he could do, you could do better.

I can understand Allen Ginsberg would not be your taste in poetry.
He never rhymes, and he's rarely silly/funny.

It sounds like you’re saying I don’t like him because he has a big nose.
You’re right that I don’t like him, but not because he has a big nose. I
have a big nose too. I don’t like him because he picked his nose in public,
and ate his boogers to just get a rise out of people. I think that’s gross.

You seem to be confusing Allen Ginsberg with Alice Cooper.
:)

I really had never considered the two in context of one another before,
but I can see how you could draw associations from one to the other.

"Shock Poetry" and "Shock Rock".

[Zod]

Allen Ginsberg in an experimental mode...

[Rocky]

Post by Will Dockery
Exactly, and we just disagree, as the old song goes.
:)

[W.Dockery]

Post by Rocky

Post by Will Dockery
Exactly, and we just disagree, as the old song goes.
:)

http://youtu.be/h16DmdQvxB0

Dave Mason.

:)

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

Out for a morning troll?

No, just setting the record straight, Pastor Corey.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

Out for a morning troll?

No, just setting the record straight, Pastor Corey.
:)

Right, sure you are. Okay, carry on.
Do whatever you feel you have to do.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

Out for a morning troll?

No, just setting the record straight, Pastor Corey.
:)

Right, sure you are. Okay, carry on.
Do whatever you feel you have to do.

Not that I /have/ to do it, but I do like seeing the truth prevail.
;)

Not that you have to do it?
You can’t stop doing it.
You’re pathological.

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack.

;)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."
"And so it goes..."

Out for a morning troll?

No, just setting the record straight, Pastor Corey.
:)

Right, sure you are. Okay, carry on.
Do whatever you feel you have to do.

Not that I /have/ to do it, but I do like seeing the truth prevail.
;)

Not that you have to do it?
You can’t stop doing it.
You’re pathological.

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.

;)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

[W.Dockery]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Corey.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by W.Dockery

Post by Tedly Schmedly

Post by Will Dockery
No, you're a bigot when you call Allen Ginsberg and other great poets no-talent bums.
:)

Yes, Pendragon is a bigot with dreams of genocide...

Let's put that in context.
"I suspect that Michael’s most serious problem is his lack
of morals and values... his wanting to drop nuclear bombs on Middle eastern countries, for example! That is sick and depraved and cruel and monstrous and vile and evil, to put it mildly!"
"Erm, do you have a link for this?
Not only is dropping a bomb in the Middle East evil, it's also stupid.. The nuclear fallout would spread into other countries that are allies. It may also cause an unnecessary war."
"Had I been President on 9/11, as of 9/12 the Middle East would consist solely of Israel in the middle of a hopefully not too radioactive sea."
-Michael Pendragon
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/Poq8sBwXIGw/YplL4lyhAwAJ
"You got that one, Pendragon, as the above statement shows, you are truly a bigoted, ignorant moron..."

You're an armchair psychiatrist aka quack, Corey.
;)

I’m really not. So, if you could change your mind
about that, it would actually do you a world of good.

If you ever gave e a reason to change my mind it would be helpful.
;)

I know. Unfortunately, we each have to find our own reason
to change our minds about anything. For example, if you
could see that my calling you pathological was not meant
to offend you, then perhaps you wouldn’t feel obliged to
insult me in reply. If you could change your mind about how
you see and identify a single word, you can change the world.

http://www.oysterboyreview.org/issue/21/reviews/GilmoreB-Heron.html#.Xzt57WjYrrc
"If Allen Ginsberg's famous 1956 poem, "Howl," is "the poem that changed America," then Gil Scott-Heron's "B-Movie," is the poem that killed America. The America of yesteryear. The one that cannot return no matter how hard many try.
We have to compare "B-Movie" to Ginsberg's "Howl" (and there are surely other poems as well) when we examine the historical and political relevance of "B-Movie" because "Howl" is also a poem of bravery and a poem that is a moment as opposed to just a literary work. Ginsberg's "Howl" brought about a trial for obscenity; few poems can say that..." -Brian Gilmore

Okay. If he could do it, so can you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Corey.

It’s not so much that I have confidence in you
as I really don’t think much of Ginsburg at all.
Anything he could do, you could do better.

[Will Dockery]

There's no rule of response here, Corey.

You fuck with me so I fuck back.

Your same old mind game attempt.

:)

[ME]

Post by Will Dockery
There's no rule of response here, Corey.
You fuck with me so I fuck back.
Your same old mind game attempt.
:)

Your responses tell the rest of us that you’re a dumb fuck who doesn’t understand basis English. And that your comprehension skills are that of a third-grader.
You’re stupid will. Deny it, but the rest of us know the truth.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
There's no rule of response here, Corey.
You fuck with me so I fuck back.
Your same old mind game attempt.
:)

It’s not a rule of response. It’s a matter of literacy and comprehension.
It’s how you know whether someone knows what you’re talking about.

[Will Dockery]

Except that you never even answer direct questions, Corey.

In other words, you're a hypocrite.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
Except that you never even answer direct questions, Corey.
In other words, you're a hypocrite.
:)

I understand you’re upset, but the truth is I always answer questions, and I’m not a hypocrite.

[Will Dockery]

You never answered most of my questions, Corey.

Archived fact.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
You never answered most of my questions, Corey.
Archived fact.
:)

I’m sorry you feel that way. I gave it my best shot.

[Ted Schmedly]

Post by Will Dockery
You never answered most of my questions, Corey.
Archived fact.
:)

I have asked Corey many questions, which he always evades....

[Will Dockery]

Yes, and have a nice day, Corey.

:)

[Will Dockery]

No, Pendragon, just keeping the record straight.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
No, Pendragon, just keeping the record straight.
:)

Like I said, you’re pathological. You can’t stop.

[W.Dockery]

I stopped smoking and drinking, so I feel that I could stop any habit I want to stop.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery
I stopped smoking and drinking, so I feel that I could stop any habit I want to stop.
:)

Funny, I was just thinking the exact same thing.
If you thought of trying to set the record straight
as just another old habit you could break by not
doing it, then you might be successful again.

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

Post by W.Dockery
I stopped smoking and drinking, so I feel that I could stop any habit I want to stop.

Thank you for admitting that you've no desire to stop trolling everyone, Will.

Of course we've all been aware of this for quite some time, but it's nice to hear you admit to it as well.

[W.Dockery]

I prefer correcting lies and misrepresentations, though, so I have no plan to stop setting the record straight.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery
I prefer correcting lies and misrepresentations, though, so I have no plan to stop setting the record straight.
:)

But that's just it, you never actually correct anything.
Everything stays like it was. Nothing is changed. The
pattern and perceptions stay the same. The internal battle
continues as it has for at least two decades with no
apparent change in attitude. You're still the same person
doing the the same things you've done ever since you
started posing online. Imagine how it would be if you
simply decided to change your mind about something as small
and insignificant as how you perceive and define a word.

[W.Dockery]

No, things are not the same as they were two decades ago, Corey.

I've gone through changes, haven't you?

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery
No, things are not the same as they were two decades ago, Corey.
I've gone through changes, haven't you?

You've obviously misread what I wrote.

[W.Dockery]

Bullshit, Pendragon.

You're the one trolling, here.

:)

[Rex Entwhistle]

Worth a read....

Shut up

You're stuck in a rut, Pendragon....

[Johnny Galt]

Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A

Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg

Exhibit B

Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968

Mot my favorite Ginsberg poems but still of interest.

Maniacal....

[Will Dockery]

No worries, Corey.

Have a nice day.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Will Dockery
No worries, Corey.
Have a nice day.
:)

I’m not worried. I’m just sorry for you. That’s all.

[W.Dockery]

No reason for that, Corey, I'm doing fine.

:)

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by W.Dockery
No reason for that, Corey, I'm doing fine.
:)

Sure you are.

[Will Dockery]

"George J. Dance" wrote in message news:22919a54-03a9-4caa-8b03-***@googlegroups.com...

Exhibit A

Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg

Exhibit B

Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968

This thread will display some good examples of the bigotry of Pendragon.

[Michael Pendragon]

Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A

Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg

Exhibit B

Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968

This thread will display some good examples of the bigotry of Pendragon.

So I'm a "bigot" because I'm opposed to NAMBLA/sex between adults and children?

That says quite a lot... about you.

[Zod]

Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A

Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg

Exhibit B

Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968

This thread will display some good examples of the bigotry of Pendragon.

Some weird poetry here, I will grant you....