Dennis M. Hammes
2003-10-29 02:18:39 UTC
sheila miguez wrote [elsewhere]:
...
over replacing local fauna in Urdu with local fauna in American
rather than translating the dirt-common into the foreign exotic.
Fortunately for me, "cherry," "apple," and "lilac" all have two
syllables.
And right there, you have the core of the problem; in Japanese,
"apple" doesn't seem to exist (traditionally), "cherry" has three,
and "lilac" (there an import) has four.
The infamous "autumn wind" I'm going on about at the moment takes
five grammatically (/aki-no kaze/), four "poetically" (/akikaze mo/,
/akikaze ya/, etc.), and the point is that if the /content/-form
demands the image, "autumn wind," isolated on the last line, then
the "proper haiku form" has only three syllables in that haiku in
English: "Autumn wind."
"Late October wind," with five syllables, is full of chaff, even
the shit of being so specific as to kill the actual concept.
["...or Japanese."]
90% of the universe from discussion.
Re haiku, I've been over what 5/7/5 in /English/ excludes 'til I'm
blue in the face (some day, I shall clean up the notes and put them
as a "book"), but will put this, anyway:
If the requirements of the 'ku in English say to put "snap, snap,
snap," you /don't/ put, "drag, drag, drag, drag, drag."
You don't even put "snap, crackle, crackle."
masters, and even the Japanese agree that 17 syllables is too much
for /Anglo-Saxon/ English; the English masters concur that the
/Latinate/ English words, though they'd fill (and overfill) the
syllable requirements are simply less than poetic for most
purposes. They're an addendum (for English) of classification
words, and haiku want objects to point to; in English, those are
almost all short Anglo-Saxon, cumulatively too short for 17-syllable
haiku because Anglish has 36 vowels on which to form short words
(Shaw says 41 in Britain).
I was arguing with Athene on this all supper; we concur that
French could easily stick to 5/7/5, and German probably could;
German has 8 vowels, French has six; Spanish, Latin, and Japanese
have the same five.
Arguing the thesis conversely, the simple fact is that /nobody/
can write "true" (5/7/5) haiku in English; the /language/ won't
permit both the rules of content and the rules of form to be
satisfied simultaneously.
Yet the /content/ part of the form is so persuasive as a concept
that the "little, fragmented lines" translations of haiku gave us
this "little, fragmented lines" form of modern English poultry.
...
Once you had a post explaining the essense of kigo and how (I'll steal
your language?) we should touch our earth and not the earth of another.
(i.e. if you don't have cherry blossoms, why use them? I have magnolias
or mimosas.) I just bring it up to say that I enjoyed the post. It was a
good discussion.
Heh. I got into a knock-down drag-out with a Doctor of Harvardnessyour language?) we should touch our earth and not the earth of another.
(i.e. if you don't have cherry blossoms, why use them? I have magnolias
or mimosas.) I just bring it up to say that I enjoyed the post. It was a
good discussion.
over replacing local fauna in Urdu with local fauna in American
rather than translating the dirt-common into the foreign exotic.
Fortunately for me, "cherry," "apple," and "lilac" all have two
syllables.
And right there, you have the core of the problem; in Japanese,
"apple" doesn't seem to exist (traditionally), "cherry" has three,
and "lilac" (there an import) has four.
The infamous "autumn wind" I'm going on about at the moment takes
five grammatically (/aki-no kaze/), four "poetically" (/akikaze mo/,
/akikaze ya/, etc.), and the point is that if the /content/-form
demands the image, "autumn wind," isolated on the last line, then
the "proper haiku form" has only three syllables in that haiku in
English: "Autumn wind."
"Late October wind," with five syllables, is full of chaff, even
the shit of being so specific as to kill the actual concept.
And Arabic is, at least, an Indo-European language, stressed and
footed; thus, English iambic pentameter works just fine in the
ghazal, where "5-7-5" in English is anathema to the whole dam'
/idea/ of haikai /or/ Zen.
footed; thus, English iambic pentameter works just fine in the
ghazal, where "5-7-5" in English is anathema to the whole dam'
/idea/ of haikai /or/ Zen.
Writing 5/7/5 and 7/7 is like solving a puzzle. it can be fun.
Poultry forms are /all/ fun games. And every form excludes about90% of the universe from discussion.
Re haiku, I've been over what 5/7/5 in /English/ excludes 'til I'm
blue in the face (some day, I shall clean up the notes and put them
as a "book"), but will put this, anyway:
If the requirements of the 'ku in English say to put "snap, snap,
snap," you /don't/ put, "drag, drag, drag, drag, drag."
You don't even put "snap, crackle, crackle."
In defense of my friend, his intent was to josh his friend on the spur of
the moment. I suspect he is unfamiliar with haiku beyond an idea about
5/7/5. In my followup I wanted to introduce the topic.
Since he used 5/7/5, I constrained my self to 7/7.
The [English] form is much-discussed by Japanese and Americanthe moment. I suspect he is unfamiliar with haiku beyond an idea about
5/7/5. In my followup I wanted to introduce the topic.
Since he used 5/7/5, I constrained my self to 7/7.
masters, and even the Japanese agree that 17 syllables is too much
for /Anglo-Saxon/ English; the English masters concur that the
/Latinate/ English words, though they'd fill (and overfill) the
syllable requirements are simply less than poetic for most
purposes. They're an addendum (for English) of classification
words, and haiku want objects to point to; in English, those are
almost all short Anglo-Saxon, cumulatively too short for 17-syllable
haiku because Anglish has 36 vowels on which to form short words
(Shaw says 41 in Britain).
I was arguing with Athene on this all supper; we concur that
French could easily stick to 5/7/5, and German probably could;
German has 8 vowels, French has six; Spanish, Latin, and Japanese
have the same five.
Arguing the thesis conversely, the simple fact is that /nobody/
can write "true" (5/7/5) haiku in English; the /language/ won't
permit both the rules of content and the rules of form to be
satisfied simultaneously.
Yet the /content/ part of the form is so persuasive as a concept
that the "little, fragmented lines" translations of haiku gave us
this "little, fragmented lines" form of modern English poultry.
--
-------(m+
~/:o)_|
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left
to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. --
Saint-Exupéry
http://scrawlmark.org
-------(m+
~/:o)_|
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left
to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. --
Saint-Exupéry
http://scrawlmark.org