Discussion:
Ginsberg's Rorschach poetry
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George J. Dance
2018-11-13 23:37:55 UTC
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Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Will Dockery
2018-11-13 23:40:12 UTC
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Thanks for posting the Allen Ginsberg poems, George.
George J. Dance
2018-11-14 02:08:21 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Thanks for posting the Allen Ginsberg poems, George.
Glad to. I thought it was even more important to do so when I discovered that Jim had scratched Ginsberg's "Sphincter".

I look forward to having the guy who claimed the poems were full of "pedophilic imagery" pointing that out, as promised. So I'll wait until tomorrow before commenting on that myself.
ME
2018-11-14 02:24:37 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Thanks for posting the Allen Ginsberg poems, George.
Glad to. I thought it was even more important to do so when I discovered that Jim had scratched Ginsberg's "Sphincter".
I look forward to having the guy who claimed the poems were full of "pedophilic imagery" pointing that out, as promised. So I'll wait until tomorrow before commenting on that myself.
So george, that’s the reason for this thread.
I thought it was about the poetry.
This is good to know.
Will Dockery
2018-11-14 02:29:37 UTC
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There are two Allen Ginsberg poems in this thread, "Me".

:)
ME
2018-11-14 03:42:16 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
There are two Allen Ginsberg poems in this thread, "Me".
:)
No, you obvious dumb ass. Dunces motive was to try and discredit Jim.
George J. Dance
2018-11-14 11:05:22 UTC
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Post by ME
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Thanks for posting the Allen Ginsberg poems, George.
Glad to. I thought it was even more important to do so when I discovered that Jim had scratched Ginsberg's "Sphincter".
I look forward to having the guy who claimed the poems were full of "pedophilic imagery" pointing that out, as promised. So I'll wait until tomorrow before commenting on that myself.
So george, that’s the reason for this thread.
Posting poetry and comments on same is the the reason for the group, Patsy. It's strange that you still haven't figured that out, years later.
Post by ME
I thought it was about the poetry.
Which explains why you, and your Master Pedodragon, haven't said a word about the poetry.
Post by ME
This is good to know.
I hope you can remember it this time, but I'm not holding my breath.
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-14 12:22:01 UTC
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The reason people gather into groups is the takeaway.
What you get out of the group is the reason you're here.
What you put into the group is why everyone else is here.
This isn't a very popular group. There's a reason for that,
and I take full responsibility for my small contribution.
Good Time Charley
2018-11-15 00:38:58 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
The reason people gather into groups is the takeaway.
What you get out of the group is the reason you're here.
What you put into the group is why everyone else is here.
This isn't a very popular group. There's a reason for that,
and I take full responsibility for my small contribution.


Allen Ginsberg and Paul McCartney playing "A Ballad of American Skeletons"
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 01:22:56 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
The reason people gather into groups is the takeaway.
What you get out of the group is the reason you're here.
What you put into the group is why everyone else is here.
This isn't a very popular group. There's a reason for that,
and I take full responsibility for my small contribution.
Is this Corey takin responsibility, though?
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 01:27:39 UTC
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Are you really so stupid that you don't understand what you just read?
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 21:01:48 UTC
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Post by ME
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Thanks for posting the Allen Ginsberg poems, George.
Glad to. I thought it was even more important to do so when I discovered
that Jim had scratched Ginsberg's "Sphincter".
I look forward to having the guy who claimed the poems were full of
"pedophilic imagery" pointing that out, as promised. So I'll wait until
tomorrow before commenting on that myself.
So george, that’s the reason for this thread.
Posting poetry and comments on same is the the reason for the group, Patsy.
It's strange that you still haven't figured that out, years later.
Post by ME
I thought it was about the poetry.
Which explains why you, and your Master Pedodragon, haven't said a word
about the poetry.
Post by ME
Post by George J. Dance
This is good to know.
I hope you can remember it this time, but I'm not holding my breath.
Hey, George... now we have "Corey/Not Corey" pretending to be confused, as
well...

:)
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 21:26:39 UTC
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Yet here you are blathering away, wasting time, "Corey/Not Corey".

:)
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 21:33:28 UTC
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It's not my problem that you don't value your
own time, or appreciate what you're reading.
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 21:50:21 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
It's not my problem that you don't value your
own time, or appreciate what you're reading.
Not only is it not your problem, but what you think about me isn't even true, Corey, or whatever you are.

;)
General Zod
2018-11-16 22:21:24 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
It's not my problem that you don't value your
own time, or appreciate what you're reading.
You never heard of Ginsberg?
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 20:59:28 UTC
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I'm not here to explain things for confused new posters... read the
archives, look it up.

:)
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 21:04:05 UTC
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Of course not. You're not here for
anyone but yourself. That's obvious.
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 21:13:28 UTC
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No, "Corey/Not Corey", you know how to read, so find out what the Allen
Ginsberg discussion is about by reading the threads, not by asking me.

;)
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 21:24:56 UTC
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Of course, that's never going to happen,
by me, or anyone who values their time.
Will Dockery
2019-01-13 04:32:53 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Thanks for posting the Allen Ginsberg poems, George.
Glad to. I thought it was even more important to do so when I discovered
that Jim had scratched Ginsberg's "Sphincter".
I look forward to having the guy who claimed the poems were full of
"pedophilic imagery" pointing that out, as promised. So I'll wait until
tomorrow
before commenting on that myself.
And, finally, I think that person was never able to show any of that
imagery?

Isn't how this thread ends?

:)
Will Dockery
2018-11-14 04:38:06 UTC
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How does Allen Ginsberg poetry discredit anyone?
General Zod
2018-11-14 04:43:32 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Some wild stuff from Ginsberg...……………...
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 01:28:35 UTC
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I understand what I read, I'm asking you who wrote it.

😊
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 01:34:40 UTC
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Asking who wrote it demonstrates your lack of understanding of its content.
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 01:48:07 UTC
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Perhaps...
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 01:53:03 UTC
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So, you really don't understand what you read,
and you lied when you said you did, because
you didn't want to look stupid. Sorry, too late.
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 01:55:22 UTC
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It really doesn't work that way, Corey, sorry.

Nice try, though.

😊
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 02:05:48 UTC
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Of course it works that way.
I can't make you look stupid.
Only you can do that.
General Zod
2018-11-16 04:55:38 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Ginsberg walking on the wild side...........
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 20:19:18 UTC
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Interesting that very little discussion is happening on this thread.
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 20:20:07 UTC
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Why is that interesting to you?
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 20:29:24 UTC
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Because this thread disputes claims made by Pendragon about Allen Ginsberg.

Pendragon's silence is... interesting.

😊
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 20:38:02 UTC
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It does? What claims are those, and how exactly are they disputed?
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-17 02:05:09 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Because this thread disputes claims made by Pendragon about Allen Ginsberg.
Pendragon's silence is... interesting.
It was addressed elsewhere.
Will Dockery
2018-11-16 20:43:10 UTC
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Ok, "not Corey"m so you must be really new here if you don't know about the
Allen Ginsberg debates.

George Dance or Pendragon will be glad to bring you up to date, I'm sure.

;)
h***@gmail.com
2018-11-16 20:52:25 UTC
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Of course it would have to be someone
else's responsibility. You sure can't do it.
George J. Dance
2018-11-16 22:18:30 UTC
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On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 6:37:56 PM UTC-5, George J. Dance wrote:

snip
Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Neither of those poems is the one that I was referring to.
Nor was it "When the Light Appears" or "This Form of Life Needs Sex" (both of which were also posted).
So we have a mystery poem; one about which I'm supposed to have "attempted to claim that since the poem *could* be interpreted in non-pedophilic ways, that it therefore wasn't a rank piece of kiddie porn."

If that ever gets found, we can include it. Meanwhile (and I'll repeat my thanks for your comment), we have "please master" and its interpretations to discuss.
Post by George J. Dance
Apparently Reb Ginsberg wrote a lot of homosexual poetry.
On the most obvious interpretation "please master" is definitely about male/male sex - one character has a 'shaft,' the other a 'penis,' and there's no reason to imagine strap-ons.
Post by George J. Dance
None of the above specifically mention boys, although all of the "please master" supplications create the image of a young boy (acolyte) imploring an older man he has been apprenticed to.
Yes, a 'master' could be a boss, or a teacher. But I think those were more usually called 'sir'. I got the idea, partly from that form of address, that this was either describing or imagining a DS role-playing game. That makes sense if the Sub is actually asking for those things, in which case he's following a script.
Post by George J. Dance
In this poem, the nature of the supplications is overtly sexual, implying that the acolyte is a virgin experiencing various sex acts for the first time.
I fail to see that implication. It reads to me as if the speaker knows exactly what's going to come (pun intended).
Post by George J. Dance
This certainly evokes the middle aged man's self-idealized view of a Man-Boy love affair.
It could, for some middle-aged or older men, admittedly. I expect it did for Jim, which is not to say he shared that view of course.
Post by George J. Dance
And while one can attach symbolic interpretations to the overall poem (Seinfeldian penis appealing to the brain; Jesus/Man appealing to God; etc.), the most direct meaning (sexual acolyte and practiced lothario) cannot be overlooked. And the implication that the acolyte would be a 13-year old boy (a common age for apprentices) must also be taken into account.
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-17 04:26:41 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
snip
Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Neither of those poems is the one that I was referring to.
Nor was it "When the Light Appears" or "This Form of Life Needs Sex" (both of which were also posted).
So we have a mystery poem; one about which I'm supposed to have "attempted to claim that since the poem *could* be interpreted in non-pedophilic ways, that it therefore wasn't a rank piece of kiddie porn."
Pretty much.

It wasn't the sort of thing I'd allocate any memory space to.
Post by George J. Dance
If that ever gets found, we can include it. Meanwhile (and I'll repeat my thanks for your comment), we have "please master" and its interpretations to discuss.
Post by George J. Dance
Apparently Reb Ginsberg wrote a lot of homosexual poetry.
On the most obvious interpretation "please master" is definitely about male/male sex - one character has a 'shaft,' the other a 'penis,' and there's no reason to imagine strap-ons.
Post by George J. Dance
None of the above specifically mention boys, although all of the "please master" supplications create the image of a young boy (acolyte) imploring an older man he has been apprenticed to.
Yes, a 'master' could be a boss, or a teacher. But I think those were more usually called 'sir'. I got the idea, partly from that form of address, that this was either describing or imagining a DS role-playing game. That makes sense if the Sub is actually asking for those things, in which case he's following a script.
And that's the thing ... when interpreting a work, *any* scenario that fits must be including in the overall evaluation of the poem. We agree that "Please Master" is overtly about homosexual sex. The fact that the narrative could be Dominant (Male Dominatrix)/Submissive, Master/Slave rpg means that this is one of the level on which it operates.

Of course D/S M/S rpgs aren't the sort of thing that the majority of people participate in/identify with. At least, I've never traveled in any such circles. For the poem to have a more universal application, we need to look at other scenarios that fit.

"Master" (and "Headmaster") were common forms of addressing a teacher in the Victorian era (and may still be used in the U.K. for all I know). And "Master" as a form of address from an apprentice to a master craftsman would also have been common during that period.

And, in a subversive inversion, to be discussed a bit later, "Master" was also a formal means of addressing a youth or boy.

I don't believe that any of these interpretations can be fully ruled out. Rather, the poem should be approached as pertaining to each of them; an particularly, with an eye on the various points of *interplay* between them.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
In this poem, the nature of the supplications is overtly sexual, implying that the acolyte is a virgin experiencing various sex acts for the first time.
I fail to see that implication. It reads to me as if the speaker knows exactly what's going to come (pun intended).
That is a valid interpretation. However, it is only one interpretation. And by limiting your understanding of the poem to only one interpretation, you are missing out on the other levels upon which it operates.

I agree that the Submissive/Slave/Acolyte/Student/Boy/Virgin knows exactly what's going to come. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's experienced it before. Since the poem works on either level, we can not only leave both interpretations open, but can merge them into a homosexual variation on the heterosexual Virgin/Whore imago.

We now have a reciprocal relation between the "Master" and "Slave" -- wherein each becomes an aspect of the other's Anima or muse; and thus, complete each other (at least as Anima figures).
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
This certainly evokes the middle aged man's self-idealized view of a Man-Boy love affair.
It could, for some middle-aged or older men, admittedly. I expect it did for Jim, which is not to say he shared that view of course.
It's a valid interpretation, and one that must be included in any understanding of the poem -- especially in light of the fact that Ginsberg claimed to be sexually attracted to young boys (early teens).

Ginsberg the poet has chosen to use the acolyte's voice to express himself. Yes, I know the Karla dogma by heart, but since both the Master and Acolyte are creations of the poet, both represent their creator to some degree.

Ginsberg was well aware that the larger part of society has an aversion to both homosexuality and considers "man-boy love" a moral abomination. Whether Ginsberg actually had such encounters, or only fantasized about such encounters, is entirely beside the point in approaching his poem. The result would have been the same in either case: that is, he would have attempted to justify the man-boy love *act* both to society at large and to himself (when society labels you a "monster," it's got to have some effect on your self-image/self worth).

More importantly, this "autobiographical" approach fits in with each of the aforementioned scenarios (Master/Slave, Dominant/Slave, Teacher/Student, Craftsman/Apprentice, Alchemist/Acolyte, Man/Boy, etc.). And, because it fits, it provides another level (autobiographical) on which the poem can be appreciated.

***
Returning to the sly role reversal/inversion mentioned above:

If the speaker (Ginsberg) were an adult addressing a boy as "Master," the poem becomes the perverse fantasy of a middle-age man mooning over/having sex with an adolescent boy -- while elevating the boy in his corresponding Anima role as a teacher, light-bringer, Messiah.

The poem becomes a poetic re-envisioning of the man-boy sexual act as a form of spiritual communion/completion.

It's an iconoclastic, amoral confrontation with heterosexual societal norms that my devilish nature applauds. In fact, I've taken a similar (albeit heterosexual) tack in a couple of my own poems ("Shall I Choose Thee, Lovely Maide" and "Come Away").

This is not to say that I find any quality in Ginsberg's poem. It is a poorly written piece; structurally repetitive, repulsively vulgar; and in spite of its subversive intent and graphic language, duller than dishwater.
George J. Dance
2018-11-17 16:05:29 UTC
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Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
Neither of those poems is the one that I was referring to.
Nor was it "When the Light Appears" or "This Form of Life Needs Sex" (both of which were also posted).
So we have a mystery poem; one about which I'm supposed to have "attempted to claim that since the poem *could* be interpreted in non-pedophilic ways, that it therefore wasn't a rank piece of kiddie porn."
Pretty much.
It wasn't the sort of thing I'd allocate any memory space to.
Then we can forget it until it turns up, and move on.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
On the most obvious interpretation "please master" is definitely about male/male sex - one character has a 'shaft,' the other a 'penis,' and there's no reason to imagine strap-ons.
Post by George J. Dance
None of the above specifically mention boys, although all of the "please master" supplications create the image of a young boy (acolyte) imploring an older man he has been apprenticed to.
Yes, a 'master' could be a boss, or a teacher. But I think those were more usually called 'sir'. I got the idea, partly from that form of address, that this was either describing or imagining a DS role-playing game. That makes sense if the Sub is actually asking for those things, in which case he's following a script.
And that's the thing ... when interpreting a work, *any* scenario that fits must be including in the overall evaluation of the poem. We agree that "Please Master" is overtly about homosexual sex. The fact that the narrative could be Dominant (Male Dominatrix)/Submissive, Master/Slave rpg means that this is one of the level on which it operates.
Fair enough. Every reader will bring his own background thoughts - his experiences in the broad sense (including what else he's read and thought about) - into an interpretation; and since those are all different, every reader's interpretation will be somewhat different.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Of course D/S M/S rpgs aren't the sort of thing that the majority of people participate in/identify with. At least, I've never traveled in any such circles.
My only 'experience' is one book I read (Glassco's /English Governess/), one I tried to read (/The Story of O/), and one I've just heard about (/50 Shades of Gray). It tells me quite a few people do it, and it's reasonable to think that more of them fantasize about it without doing it. Ginsberg might have been one of either group.
Post by Michael Pendragon
For the poem to have a more universal application, we need to look at other scenarios that fit.
"Master" (and "Headmaster") were common forms of addressing a teacher in the Victorian era (and may still be used in the U.K. for all I know). And "Master" as a form of address from an apprentice to a master craftsman would also have been common during that period.
Also in the British context, it could be an adult servant or employee speaking to his boss (Scrooge was Bob Cratchit's "master") and, in the American context, a black slave to the slaveowner.
Post by Michael Pendragon
And, in a subversive inversion, to be discussed a bit later, "Master" was also a formal means of addressing a youth or boy.
True.
Post by Michael Pendragon
I don't believe that any of these interpretations can be fully ruled out. Rather, the poem should be approached as pertaining to each of them; an particularly, with an eye on the various points of *interplay* between them.
The only thing that can rule out an interpretation is something in the text itself, and admittedly the two guys in the poem could be in any of those roles, or (in my D/S interpretation), playing any of those roles. Only a reader can decide which, based on his or her own background ideas and beliefs.

That's why I called "please master" a Rorschach poem: it's capable of more than one interpretation, and the interpretation a reader picks says more about the reader as it does about the poem.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
In this poem, the nature of the supplications is overtly sexual, implying that the acolyte is a virgin experiencing various sex acts for the first time.
I fail to see that implication. It reads to me as if the speaker knows exactly what's going to come (pun intended).
That is a valid interpretation. However, it is only one interpretation. And by limiting your understanding of the poem to only one interpretation, you are missing out on the other levels upon which it operates.
I understand, and I'm not trying to limit the interpretation; that's why I called your saying that I would do that "an outrageous lie". As I see it, those who'd argue that a poem like this is simply "a rank piece of kiddy porn" are the ones doing the limiting. I'm simply trying to make the points that (1) there are alternative interpretations, and (2) those readers' interpretations owe more to them than to the poem.
Post by Michael Pendragon
I agree that the Submissive/Slave/Acolyte/Student/Boy/Virgin knows exactly what's going to come. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's experienced it before. Since the poem works on either level, we can not only leave both interpretations open, but can merge them into a homosexual variation on the heterosexual Virgin/Whore imago.
We now have a reciprocal relation between the "Master" and "Slave" -- wherein each becomes an aspect of the other's Anima or muse; and thus, complete each other (at least as Anima figures).
Again, that's fair enough; a sex poem should transcend the physical motions to get at the idea of souls or spirits merging, when "two become one" as Plato and Jesus had it, right up to the Spice Girls. (Which is one reason I don't like Ginsberg's poem: it doesn't go beyond the physical.)
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
This certainly evokes the middle aged man's self-idealized view of a Man-Boy love affair.
It could, for some middle-aged or older men, admittedly. I expect it did for Jim, which is not to say he shared that view of course.
It's a valid interpretation, and one that must be included in any understanding of the poem -- especially in light of the fact that Ginsberg claimed to be sexually attracted to young boys (early teens).
Agreed again: Ginsberg was an admitted MAP (Minor-Attracted Person), who was by his own account molested by a predator when he was 8. One can't rule out that he was thinking about it. At the same time, there's no reason to think that he was writing about it, that that's what he was trying to communicate.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Ginsberg the poet has chosen to use the acolyte's voice to express himself. Yes, I know the Karla dogma by heart, but since both the Master and Acolyte are creations of the poet, both represent their creator to some degree.
I think Karla's speaker/writer dictum is full of shit. The speaker and writer are distinct categories, but that could be a distinction without a difference; Karla simply begged the question when she said those who identified the two in this or that poem were "confused". Even where a writer uses an invented persona as a speaker, the persona is still saying and doing what just what the writer wants him to say and do, in order to communicate what the writer wants to say - his character has no more independence of mind than, say, a sockmonkey.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Ginsberg was well aware that the larger part of society has an aversion to both homosexuality and considers "man-boy love" a moral abomination.
In my lifetime, both were considered abominations; for example, I remember reading a book on morality from the early 1960s (title and author long forgotten) that pointed out that (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that "even the most committed homosexual knows that he is mentally ill." Gangs or mobs would attack and even kill them, just as they'd do for suspected predators today. Even Ayn Rand used to tell her acolytes (paraphrasing again), "you can be homosexual; you just cannot morally act on it." That is changing; I'd say that most of "society" below a certain age just doesn't care about that anymore.

I don't think the same can. or will, or should ever happen to those who fantasize about molesting children, any more than to people who have other rape fantasies. "Don't act on it" should be not only a socially but a legally enforceable rule, and I predict it will be as long as most of us have children of our own.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Whether Ginsberg actually had such encounters, or only fantasized about such encounters, is entirely beside the point in approaching his poem. The result would have been the same in either case: that is, he would have attempted to justify the man-boy love *act* both to society at large and to himself (when society labels you a "monster," it's got to have some effect on your self-image/self worth).
He's certainly doing something like that for *homosexual* love - he's at least writing "shock poetry," throwing it in the faces of those who would consider it
an abomination. The text supports that well enough.

There's nothing in the text to say that he's doing that for child molesting, though; the idea that the speaker is a child isn't ruled out by the text, but it isn't supported by anything in it, either. Some readers are going to read it that way, some won't; as with Rorschach ink blots, the subject sees it or not because of the subject, not because of the poem or the blot.
Post by Michael Pendragon
More importantly, this "autobiographical" approach fits in with each of the aforementioned scenarios (Master/Slave, Dominant/Slave, Teacher/Student, Craftsman/Apprentice, Alchemist/Acolyte, Man/Boy, etc.). And, because it fits, it provides another level (autobiographical) on which the poem can be appreciated.
Sure, "autobiographical" criticism can enhance one's knowledge of a poem; considering how people prefer reading biographies (both non-fiction and fiction) to, say, reading meditations on eternal verities, it's a good way to bring people to poetry.

But it cannot say anything definitive about the poem, or what the writer meant to say in the poem. Critics who disagree about that have to rely on what the writer did say: on the text, the whole text, and nothing but the text.
Post by Michael Pendragon
***
If the speaker (Ginsberg) were an adult addressing a boy as "Master," the poem becomes the perverse fantasy of a middle-age man mooning over/having sex with an adolescent boy -- while elevating the boy in his corresponding Anima role as a teacher, light-bringer, Messiah.
The poem becomes a poetic re-envisioning of the man-boy sexual act as a form of spiritual communion/completion.
It's an iconoclastic, amoral confrontation with heterosexual societal norms that my devilish nature applauds. In fact, I've taken a similar (albeit heterosexual) tack in a couple of my own poems ("Shall I Choose Thee, Lovely Maide" and "Come Away").
Well put. "Shock poetry" can be about more than the shock; that can be just a device to get the reader out of his comfort zone, and get him thinking about things he wouldn't think of otherwise.
Post by Michael Pendragon
This is not to say that I find any quality in Ginsberg's poem. It is a poorly written piece; structurally repetitive, repulsively vulgar; and in spite of its subversive intent and graphic language, duller than dishwater.
Agreed. Unless one's into sex fantasy (and I'm not), there's nothing in it that I'd expect anyone to find attractive. Maybe the repetition gives it some power as a performance piece, say if Ginsberg or someone like him were reciting it the way he did "Howl". But that's all I can see of value in it.
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-17 18:40:28 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
Neither of those poems is the one that I was referring to.
Nor was it "When the Light Appears" or "This Form of Life Needs Sex" (both of which were also posted).
So we have a mystery poem; one about which I'm supposed to have "attempted to claim that since the poem *could* be interpreted in non-pedophilic ways, that it therefore wasn't a rank piece of kiddie porn."
Pretty much.
It wasn't the sort of thing I'd allocate any memory space to.
Then we can forget it until it turns up, and move on.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
On the most obvious interpretation "please master" is definitely about male/male sex - one character has a 'shaft,' the other a 'penis,' and there's no reason to imagine strap-ons.
Post by George J. Dance
None of the above specifically mention boys, although all of the "please master" supplications create the image of a young boy (acolyte) imploring an older man he has been apprenticed to.
Yes, a 'master' could be a boss, or a teacher. But I think those were more usually called 'sir'. I got the idea, partly from that form of address, that this was either describing or imagining a DS role-playing game. That makes sense if the Sub is actually asking for those things, in which case he's following a script.
And that's the thing ... when interpreting a work, *any* scenario that fits must be including in the overall evaluation of the poem. We agree that "Please Master" is overtly about homosexual sex. The fact that the narrative could be Dominant (Male Dominatrix)/Submissive, Master/Slave rpg means that this is one of the level on which it operates.
Fair enough. Every reader will bring his own background thoughts - his experiences in the broad sense (including what else he's read and thought about) - into an interpretation; and since those are all different, every reader's interpretation will be somewhat different.
To and extent. The critical reader would allow his interpretation to expand based upon the observations of others. IOW, the critical approach is inclusive; each individual interpretation isn't view as "different" or "counter," but as a new level of meaning that enriches the poem as a whole.

However, there is a finite number of interpretive levels to which any given can lay claim. To be considered valid, each individual interpretation must adhere to and support the main narrative at its most overt/basic level. In this instance, an individual interpretation is deemed "valid," so long as it fits into the homosexual Dominant/Submissive theme.

Theoretically, the finite number of interpretations will be reached, expressed, and read; at which time all informed critical readings should correspond.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Of course D/S M/S rpgs aren't the sort of thing that the majority of people participate in/identify with. At least, I've never traveled in any such circles.
My only 'experience' is one book I read (Glassco's /English Governess/), one I tried to read (/The Story of O/), and one I've just heard about (/50 Shades of Gray). It tells me quite a few people do it, and it's reasonable to think that more of them fantasize about it without doing it. Ginsberg might have been one of either group.
The D/S rpg scenario is a part of our collective culture and visual allusions to it have turned up on prime time television shows like "Seinfeld" and "Supernatural" (and in British comedies from the 1970s, like "Monty Python's Flying Circus" and "The Benny Hill Show"). Bettie Page takes it back to the 1950s, but that aspect of her career didn't become "mainstream" until much later. However, I believe it is something that most people know about *only* through its depiction in the popular media, and not from firsthand experience.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
For the poem to have a more universal application, we need to look at other scenarios that fit.
"Master" (and "Headmaster") were common forms of addressing a teacher in the Victorian era (and may still be used in the U.K. for all I know). And "Master" as a form of address from an apprentice to a master craftsman would also have been common during that period.
Also in the British context, it could be an adult servant or employee speaking to his boss (Scrooge was Bob Cratchit's "master") and, in the American context, a black slave to the slaveowner.
Post by Michael Pendragon
And, in a subversive inversion, to be discussed a bit later, "Master" was also a formal means of addressing a youth or boy.
True.
Post by Michael Pendragon
I don't believe that any of these interpretations can be fully ruled out. Rather, the poem should be approached as pertaining to each of them; an particularly, with an eye on the various points of *interplay* between them.
The only thing that can rule out an interpretation is something in the text itself, and admittedly the two guys in the poem could be in any of those roles, or (in my D/S interpretation), playing any of those roles. Only a reader can decide which, based on his or her own background ideas and beliefs.
And on this point we disagree. I maintain that a *critical reader* would not decide on any one of those interpretations, but would take all of them into account. And, in taking each interpretation into account, would decide that each is equally viable. And, as each is equally viable, no one of these interpretations is correct: the poem's meaning *must* apply to, and include, *all* of them.

But does an interpretation include a dozen or more various scenarios? The answer is relatively simple: by identifying the underlying common denominators and adopting as broad (and inclusive) an interpretation as possible.

In Ginsberg's poem, the underlying common denominators are 1) homosexual sex, and 2) Dominant/Submissive sex. We must next determine what his message about homosexual Dominant/Submissive sex is, and apply that message to each of the various scenarios.

The message, so far as I can determine, is one of reciprocal spiritual/psychological completion on the part of both "master" and "slave." This not only holds true on a literal level (that is, within each of the afore-mentioned sexual scenarios), but on a metaphorical level when applied to any social situation involving a "master" and "subordinate."
Post by George J. Dance
That's why I called "please master" a Rorschach poem: it's capable of more than one interpretation, and the interpretation a reader picks says more about the reader as it does about the poem.
No, no, no. To settle on a single interpretation in terms of narrative scenario is to not understand the poem (or any poem) at all. The only thing such a "Rorschach test" would prove is whether one is capable of applying a critical analysis to a poem ... or not.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
In this poem, the nature of the supplications is overtly sexual, implying that the acolyte is a virgin experiencing various sex acts for the first time.
I fail to see that implication. It reads to me as if the speaker knows exactly what's going to come (pun intended).
That is a valid interpretation. However, it is only one interpretation. And by limiting your understanding of the poem to only one interpretation, you are missing out on the other levels upon which it operates.
I understand, and I'm not trying to limit the interpretation; that's why I called your saying that I would do that "an outrageous lie".
But that is, in effect, what you are doing. You're allowing for numerous individual interpretations, rather than comprehending that each individual interpretation is merely a part of the complete picture.

And, in this instance, the complete picture includes man-boy sex.

For instance, let's take a social interpretation: the "master" (supervisor) and "slave" (subordinate) in the workplace. The psycho-sexual S&M overtones apply to the workplace situation, and the homosexual (when both employees are male) and pedophilic overtones apply (if only on a latent/subconscious/subtextual level): the (father figure) manager exerting his dominance/authority over the compliant (child figure) underling.

In short, the homosexual D/S sex/pedophilia interpretations apply to each scenario on some level.
Post by George J. Dance
As I see it, those who'd argue that a poem like this is simply "a rank piece of kiddy porn" are the ones doing the limiting.
That statement was made regarding another poem (or, rather, my recollection of what I took away from a vaguely remembered poem). However, it is both accurate and limiting in regards to this piece.

It is a rank piece of pornography. Ginsberg/the narrator graphically depicts an interminably long list of sexual acts in such a manner that one can safely draw the conclusion that he was typing with only one of his hands on the keyboard.

And, insofar as its M/S depiction lends itself to a child/adult interaction, it is kiddie porn as well. And, IMO the child/adult reading was intentionally hinted at, and cultivated, throughout the narrative, and that the poem is "a rank piece of kiddie porn."

It is other things as well (all of them exhibiting varying degrees of offensiveness), but the "kiddie porn" element cannot be brushed aside.
Post by George J. Dance
I'm simply trying to make the points that (1) there are alternative interpretations, and (2) those readers' interpretations owe more to them than to the poem.
And I'll reassert my main contention that 1) the alternate interpretations are merely pieces of the larger interpretation, and that 2) the mistaken insistence on individual interpretations (as opposed to a single, multi-layered reading) is what separates the critical reader from the casual one.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
I agree that the Submissive/Slave/Acolyte/Student/Boy/Virgin knows exactly what's going to come. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's experienced it before. Since the poem works on either level, we can not only leave both interpretations open, but can merge them into a homosexual variation on the heterosexual Virgin/Whore imago.
We now have a reciprocal relation between the "Master" and "Slave" -- wherein each becomes an aspect of the other's Anima or muse; and thus, complete each other (at least as Anima figures).
Again, that's fair enough; a sex poem should transcend the physical motions to get at the idea of souls or spirits merging, when "two become one" as Plato and Jesus had it, right up to the Spice Girls. (Which is one reason I don't like Ginsberg's poem: it doesn't go beyond the physical.)
IOW: it's porn.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
This certainly evokes the middle aged man's self-idealized view of a Man-Boy love affair.
It could, for some middle-aged or older men, admittedly. I expect it did for Jim, which is not to say he shared that view of course.
It's a valid interpretation, and one that must be included in any understanding of the poem -- especially in light of the fact that Ginsberg claimed to be sexually attracted to young boys (early teens).
Agreed again: Ginsberg was an admitted MAP (Minor-Attracted Person), who was by his own account molested by a predator when he was 8. One can't rule out that he was thinking about it. At the same time, there's no reason to think that he was writing about it, that that's what he was trying to communicate.
I disagree. There is plenty of reason to assume he was thinking about. In fact there is plenty of reason, based upon the role that being a MAP played in his life, to suspect that his poem is primarily an autoerotic rumination on, and self-justifcation of, an adult-minor sexual coupling. And, such a reading can easily be applied to the poems' "Please master" structure.

One can argue over whether it is the primary aspect of the poem, but one can never dismiss it from any valid interpretation.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Ginsberg the poet has chosen to use the acolyte's voice to express himself. Yes, I know the Karla dogma by heart, but since both the Master and Acolyte are creations of the poet, both represent their creator to some degree.
I think Karla's speaker/writer dictum is full of shit. The speaker and writer are distinct categories, but that could be a distinction without a difference; Karla simply begged the question when she said those who identified the two in this or that poem were "confused". Even where a writer uses an invented persona as a speaker, the persona is still saying and doing what just what the writer wants him to say and do, in order to communicate what the writer wants to say - his character has no more independence of mind than, say, a sockmonkey.
I wouldn't say that Karla's dictum was full of shit (although Will's use of it as a "Get out of jail free" card certainly is), as it is correct insofar as it goes. A writer can have a character express hateful, bigoted remarks only to expose (by example) the character flaws that give rise to them. In a similar manner, the sociopathic characters in my stories don't represent me, per se, so much as psychological tendencies I've rejected. Of course, the other side of the coin is that in order for me to have rejected these tendencies, I must first have entertained them to some extent.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Ginsberg was well aware that the larger part of society has an aversion to both homosexuality and considers "man-boy love" a moral abomination.
In my lifetime, both were considered abominations; for example, I remember reading a book on morality from the early 1960s (title and author long forgotten) that pointed out that (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that "even the most committed homosexual knows that he is mentally ill."
As per the teachings of Sigmund Freud who called it an "aberration," and recommended treatment to correct it. And I should make it clear that our cultural acceptance of a psychological aberration (a differentiation from the norm) doesn't make it any less of one.
Post by George J. Dance
Gangs or mobs would attack and even kill them, just as they'd do for suspected predators today. Even Ayn Rand used to tell her acolytes (paraphrasing again), "you can be homosexual; you just cannot morally act on it." That is changing; I'd say that most of "society" below a certain age just doesn't care about that anymore.
That certain age being ... 60? Most people my age or younger (myself included) don't care about it one way or the other. We have adopted a laissez-faire attitude toward it through having become familiarized with it at a fairly early age. And, for better or worse, we can give Ginsberg (and poems like "Please Master") some credit for this.
Post by George J. Dance
I don't think the same can. or will, or should ever happen to those who fantasize about molesting children, any more than to people who have other rape fantasies. "Don't act on it" should be not only a socially but a legally enforceable rule, and I predict it will be as long as most of us have children of our own.
A hundred years ago, most would have drawn the same conclusion about homosexuality. This is the fundamental basis of our ongoing argument over whether NAMBLA has the right (inalienable, not legal) to express its beliefs.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Whether Ginsberg actually had such encounters, or only fantasized about such encounters, is entirely beside the point in approaching his poem. The result would have been the same in either case: that is, he would have attempted to justify the man-boy love *act* both to society at large and to himself (when society labels you a "monster," it's got to have some effect on your self-image/self worth).
He's certainly doing something like that for *homosexual* love - he's at least writing "shock poetry," throwing it in the faces of those who would consider it
an abomination. The text supports that well enough.
The homosexual context is overt, the MAP subtextually.
Post by George J. Dance
There's nothing in the text to say that he's doing that for child molesting, though; the idea that the speaker is a child isn't ruled out by the text, but it isn't supported by anything in it, either. Some readers are going to read it that way, some won't; as with Rorschach ink blots, the subject sees it or not because of the subject, not because of the poem or the blot.
It isn't directly supported, but it is strongly hinted at in the master/subordinate (adult/child) structure. And, it's inescapable when one takes Ginsberg's expressed preferences into account,
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
More importantly, this "autobiographical" approach fits in with each of the aforementioned scenarios (Master/Slave, Dominant/Slave, Teacher/Student, Craftsman/Apprentice, Alchemist/Acolyte, Man/Boy, etc.). And, because it fits, it provides another level (autobiographical) on which the poem can be appreciated.
Sure, "autobiographical" criticism can enhance one's knowledge of a poem; considering how people prefer reading biographies (both non-fiction and fiction) to, say, reading meditations on eternal verities, it's a good way to bring people to poetry.
Reading biographies can help one to better understand the writings of an author. I'm currently reading a biography on Charles Dickens, and the correspondences between his fictional characters and the various people in his life can be enlightening.
Post by George J. Dance
But it cannot say anything definitive about the poem, or what the writer meant to say in the poem. Critics who disagree about that have to rely on what the writer did say: on the text, the whole text, and nothing but the text.
And the text readily allows for, even hints at and encourages, an adult/child relationship. At best, it's the 800 lb gorilla in the room.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
If the speaker (Ginsberg) were an adult addressing a boy as "Master," the poem becomes the perverse fantasy of a middle-age man mooning over/having sex with an adolescent boy -- while elevating the boy in his corresponding Anima role as a teacher, light-bringer, Messiah.
The poem becomes a poetic re-envisioning of the man-boy sexual act as a form of spiritual communion/completion.
It's an iconoclastic, amoral confrontation with heterosexual societal norms that my devilish nature applauds. In fact, I've taken a similar (albeit heterosexual) tack in a couple of my own poems ("Shall I Choose Thee, Lovely Maide" and "Come Away").
Well put. "Shock poetry" can be about more than the shock; that can be just a device to get the reader out of his comfort zone, and get him thinking about things he wouldn't think of otherwise.
It can also be a sensationalistic lure to draw the reader to a poem/book he might not otherwise notice.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
This is not to say that I find any quality in Ginsberg's poem. It is a poorly written piece; structurally repetitive, repulsively vulgar; and in spite of its subversive intent and graphic language, duller than dishwater.
Agreed. Unless one's into sex fantasy (and I'm not), there's nothing in it that I'd expect anyone to find attractive. Maybe the repetition gives it some power as a performance piece, say if Ginsberg or someone like him were reciting it the way he did "Howl". But that's all I can see of value in it.
IOW: it's a rank piece of porn (with kiddie porn overtones).
Zod
2019-01-10 09:48:49 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
Neither of those poems is the one that I was referring to.
Nor was it "When the Light Appears" or "This Form of Life Needs Sex" (both of which were also posted).
So we have a mystery poem; one about which I'm supposed to have "attempted to claim that since the poem *could* be interpreted in non-pedophilic ways, that it therefore wasn't a rank piece of kiddie porn."
Pretty much.
It wasn't the sort of thing I'd allocate any memory space to.
Then we can forget it until it turns up, and move on.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
On the most obvious interpretation "please master" is definitely about male/male sex - one character has a 'shaft,' the other a 'penis,' and there's no reason to imagine strap-ons.
Post by George J. Dance
None of the above specifically mention boys, although all of the "please master" supplications create the image of a young boy (acolyte) imploring an older man he has been apprenticed to.
Yes, a 'master' could be a boss, or a teacher. But I think those were more usually called 'sir'. I got the idea, partly from that form of address, that this was either describing or imagining a DS role-playing game. That makes sense if the Sub is actually asking for those things, in which case he's following a script.
And that's the thing ... when interpreting a work, *any* scenario that fits must be including in the overall evaluation of the poem. We agree that "Please Master" is overtly about homosexual sex. The fact that the narrative could be Dominant (Male Dominatrix)/Submissive, Master/Slave rpg means that this is one of the level on which it operates.
Fair enough. Every reader will bring his own background thoughts - his experiences in the broad sense (including what else he's read and thought about) - into an interpretation; and since those are all different, every reader's interpretation will be somewhat different.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Of course D/S M/S rpgs aren't the sort of thing that the majority of people participate in/identify with. At least, I've never traveled in any such circles.
My only 'experience' is one book I read (Glassco's /English Governess/), one I tried to read (/The Story of O/), and one I've just heard about (/50 Shades of Gray). It tells me quite a few people do it, and it's reasonable to think that more of them fantasize about it without doing it. Ginsberg might have been one of either group.
Post by Michael Pendragon
For the poem to have a more universal application, we need to look at other scenarios that fit.
"Master" (and "Headmaster") were common forms of addressing a teacher in the Victorian era (and may still be used in the U.K. for all I know). And "Master" as a form of address from an apprentice to a master craftsman would also have been common during that period.
Also in the British context, it could be an adult servant or employee speaking to his boss (Scrooge was Bob Cratchit's "master") and, in the American context, a black slave to the slaveowner.
Post by Michael Pendragon
And, in a subversive inversion, to be discussed a bit later, "Master" was also a formal means of addressing a youth or boy.
True.
Post by Michael Pendragon
I don't believe that any of these interpretations can be fully ruled out. Rather, the poem should be approached as pertaining to each of them; an particularly, with an eye on the various points of *interplay* between them.
The only thing that can rule out an interpretation is something in the text itself, and admittedly the two guys in the poem could be in any of those roles, or (in my D/S interpretation), playing any of those roles. Only a reader can decide which, based on his or her own background ideas and beliefs.
That's why I called "please master" a Rorschach poem: it's capable of more than one interpretation, and the interpretation a reader picks says more about the reader as it does about the poem.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
In this poem, the nature of the supplications is overtly sexual, implying that the acolyte is a virgin experiencing various sex acts for the first time.
I fail to see that implication. It reads to me as if the speaker knows exactly what's going to come (pun intended).
That is a valid interpretation. However, it is only one interpretation. And by limiting your understanding of the poem to only one interpretation, you are missing out on the other levels upon which it operates.
I understand, and I'm not trying to limit the interpretation; that's why I called your saying that I would do that "an outrageous lie". As I see it, those who'd argue that a poem like this is simply "a rank piece of kiddy porn" are the ones doing the limiting. I'm simply trying to make the points that (1) there are alternative interpretations, and (2) those readers' interpretations owe more to them than to the poem.
Post by Michael Pendragon
I agree that the Submissive/Slave/Acolyte/Student/Boy/Virgin knows exactly what's going to come. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's experienced it before. Since the poem works on either level, we can not only leave both interpretations open, but can merge them into a homosexual variation on the heterosexual Virgin/Whore imago.
We now have a reciprocal relation between the "Master" and "Slave" -- wherein each becomes an aspect of the other's Anima or muse; and thus, complete each other (at least as Anima figures).
Again, that's fair enough; a sex poem should transcend the physical motions to get at the idea of souls or spirits merging, when "two become one" as Plato and Jesus had it, right up to the Spice Girls. (Which is one reason I don't like Ginsberg's poem: it doesn't go beyond the physical.)
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by George J. Dance
This certainly evokes the middle aged man's self-idealized view of a Man-Boy love affair.
It could, for some middle-aged or older men, admittedly. I expect it did for Jim, which is not to say he shared that view of course.
It's a valid interpretation, and one that must be included in any understanding of the poem -- especially in light of the fact that Ginsberg claimed to be sexually attracted to young boys (early teens).
Agreed again: Ginsberg was an admitted MAP (Minor-Attracted Person), who was by his own account molested by a predator when he was 8. One can't rule out that he was thinking about it. At the same time, there's no reason to think that he was writing about it, that that's what he was trying to communicate.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Ginsberg the poet has chosen to use the acolyte's voice to express himself. Yes, I know the Karla dogma by heart, but since both the Master and Acolyte are creations of the poet, both represent their creator to some degree.
I think Karla's speaker/writer dictum is full of shit. The speaker and writer are distinct categories, but that could be a distinction without a difference; Karla simply begged the question when she said those who identified the two in this or that poem were "confused". Even where a writer uses an invented persona as a speaker, the persona is still saying and doing what just what the writer wants him to say and do, in order to communicate what the writer wants to say - his character has no more independence of mind than, say, a sockmonkey.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Ginsberg was well aware that the larger part of society has an aversion to both homosexuality and considers "man-boy love" a moral abomination.
In my lifetime, both were considered abominations; for example, I remember reading a book on morality from the early 1960s (title and author long forgotten) that pointed out that (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that "even the most committed homosexual knows that he is mentally ill." Gangs or mobs would attack and even kill them, just as they'd do for suspected predators today. Even Ayn Rand used to tell her acolytes (paraphrasing again), "you can be homosexual; you just cannot morally act on it." That is changing; I'd say that most of "society" below a certain age just doesn't care about that anymore.
I don't think the same can. or will, or should ever happen to those who fantasize about molesting children, any more than to people who have other rape fantasies. "Don't act on it" should be not only a socially but a legally enforceable rule, and I predict it will be as long as most of us have children of our own.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Whether Ginsberg actually had such encounters, or only fantasized about such encounters, is entirely beside the point in approaching his poem. The result would have been the same in either case: that is, he would have attempted to justify the man-boy love *act* both to society at large and to himself (when society labels you a "monster," it's got to have some effect on your self-image/self worth).
He's certainly doing something like that for *homosexual* love - he's at least writing "shock poetry," throwing it in the faces of those who would consider it
an abomination. The text supports that well enough.
There's nothing in the text to say that he's doing that for child molesting, though; the idea that the speaker is a child isn't ruled out by the text, but it isn't supported by anything in it, either. Some readers are going to read it that way, some won't; as with Rorschach ink blots, the subject sees it or not because of the subject, not because of the poem or the blot.
Post by Michael Pendragon
More importantly, this "autobiographical" approach fits in with each of the aforementioned scenarios (Master/Slave, Dominant/Slave, Teacher/Student, Craftsman/Apprentice, Alchemist/Acolyte, Man/Boy, etc.). And, because it fits, it provides another level (autobiographical) on which the poem can be appreciated.
Sure, "autobiographical" criticism can enhance one's knowledge of a poem; considering how people prefer reading biographies (both non-fiction and fiction) to, say, reading meditations on eternal verities, it's a good way to bring people to poetry.
But it cannot say anything definitive about the poem, or what the writer meant to say in the poem. Critics who disagree about that have to rely on what the writer did say: on the text, the whole text, and nothing but the text.
Post by Michael Pendragon
***
If the speaker (Ginsberg) were an adult addressing a boy as "Master," the poem becomes the perverse fantasy of a middle-age man mooning over/having sex with an adolescent boy -- while elevating the boy in his corresponding Anima role as a teacher, light-bringer, Messiah.
The poem becomes a poetic re-envisioning of the man-boy sexual act as a form of spiritual communion/completion.
It's an iconoclastic, amoral confrontation with heterosexual societal norms that my devilish nature applauds. In fact, I've taken a similar (albeit heterosexual) tack in a couple of my own poems ("Shall I Choose Thee, Lovely Maide" and "Come Away").
Well put. "Shock poetry" can be about more than the shock; that can be just a device to get the reader out of his comfort zone, and get him thinking about things he wouldn't think of otherwise.
Post by Michael Pendragon
This is not to say that I find any quality in Ginsberg's poem. It is a poorly written piece; structurally repetitive, repulsively vulgar; and in spite of its subversive intent and graphic language, duller than dishwater.
Agreed. Unless one's into sex fantasy (and I'm not), there's nothing in it that I'd expect anyone to find attractive. Maybe the repetition gives it some power as a performance piece, say if Ginsberg or someone like him were reciting it the way he did "Howl". But that's all I can see of value in it.
Ginsberg was a brilliant poet...……...
Will Dockery
2018-11-17 04:15:02 UTC
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In other words, Pendragon, you were proven wrong and you want to forger about the entire thing.

😊
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-17 05:28:06 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Allen Ginsberg was a poet genius.......
You're sorely mistaken on both counts.

But if you're going to make these ridiculous pronouncements, it behooves you to offer something in support.

What do you find so ingenious and poetic about Ginsberg's ode to his asshole?
Will Dockery
2018-11-17 12:16:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Allen Ginsberg was a poet genius.......
You're sorely mistaken on both counts.
He's far from alone in that judgement, though, you know.
Will Dockery
2018-11-17 18:57:27 UTC
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Porn aka shock poetry, I agree... "kiddie porn", zero content.
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-17 19:07:26 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Porn aka shock poetry, I agree... "kiddie porn", zero content.
And here we have the perfect example of the uninformed reader vs the critical one.
Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
2018-11-17 19:16:40 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Porn aka shock poetry, I agree... "kiddie porn", zero content.
Shalom & Boker tov, Will...FakeJewScarlotti is a deliberate, knowing liar, who libels and waves his lips, in hopes someone will mistake him as being capable of thought. He is a nationalsozialist, Will.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel benAvraham v'Rachel Riva:
davening in the musematic dark
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-18 02:21:27 UTC
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Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Post by Will Dockery
Porn aka shock poetry, I agree... "kiddie porn", zero content.
Shalom & Boker tov, Will...FakeJewScarlotti is a deliberate, knowing liar, who libels and waves his lips, in hopes someone will mistake him as being capable of thought. He is a nationalsozialist, Will.
Now, now, Pick. Let's not talk about liars.

After all, I've got two different library collections of your letters that indisputably prove you to be the biggest damned liar on the planet.
Will Dockery
2018-11-17 19:45:31 UTC
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Permalink
No, Pendragon, you are an example of a biased reader.
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-18 02:20:13 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
No, Pendragon, you are an example of a biased reader.
I suggest you go back and carefully reread my response to George.

After having reread it, I further suggest that you go to the local library, print up a copy, place it in a mylar envelop, bring it to Dr. David Schwimmer, and ask him to explain it to you.
Good Time Charley
2018-11-17 22:26:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968


Provided to YouTube by Virtual Label LLC

Please Master · Allen Ginsberg

Holy Soul Jelly Roll

℗ 1994 Allen Ginsberg LLC

Released on: 1994-09-06

Producer: Hal Willner
Lyricist: Allen Ginsberg
Music Publisher: May King Music
George J. Dance
2018-11-18 17:31:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
snip
Post by Good Time Charley
Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
http://youtu.be/ZrdjqdcSBKY
Provided to YouTube by Virtual Label LLC
Please Master · Allen Ginsberg
Holy Soul Jelly Roll
℗ 1994 Allen Ginsberg LLC
Released on: 1994-09-06
Producer: Hal Willner
Lyricist: Allen Ginsberg
Music Publisher: May King Music
Maybe the repetition gives it some power as a performance piece, say if Ginsberg or someone like him were reciting it the way he did "Howl".
I'll have to watch it and see; but I'm going to belay that for now.
Will Dockery
2018-11-18 22:06:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I haven't watched this Ginsberg video either, I will soon.
Will Dockery
2018-11-18 02:22:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Correction, Pendragon...

You claim to have letters, But You have yet to prove that they exist.

😀
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-18 02:37:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Correction, Pendragon...
You claim to have letters, But You have yet to prove that they exist.
I have proven it to Pick. That should be enough for you.

As previously noted: there is no question that I have access to the letters. The point under dispute is that of whether Pick, Ackerman, or Ellison was the author.

And even that isn't seriously under dispute, because the only option that makes any sense, is that they were written by Pick.
Will Dockery
2018-11-18 02:51:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Until the identity of the writer of the letters is proven, you have nothing but accusations, Pendragon.

😊
Michael Pendragon
2018-11-18 03:25:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Until the identity of the writer of the letters is proven, you have nothing but accusations, Pendragon.
No, Will. I have other, official, legal documents: High School Graduation, Father's Inquest, Marriage Certificate, etc. There is no way that Pick could have been in Canada at the time he claims. Nor is it reasonable to believe that he had a 15-year old Sephardic concubine and newborn daughter in tow. Pick's story is a fake from beginning to end. He spent the first half of 1967 in the booby hatch, and was exempted from the war on Section 8. He's a delusional liar, with almost as poor an understanding of the English language as yourself.
Will Dockery
2018-11-18 03:59:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Pendragon, if you have these documents, why not post proof that you do?
m***@gmail.com
2018-11-18 05:49:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Pendragon, if you have these documents, why not post proof that you do?
I do not own the rights to them.

Again, Pick does not dispute that the documents exist -- he claims that he was not their author.

That he was their author can only be proven with logic -- and this I have (easily) done.

Pick has invented an elaborate "history" because he is either ashamed of the truth, or unable to face that truth himself. And the truth is that he admitted himself into a psychiatric ward/mental institution in early 1967.

You've only got to look at one of his flaked out "gossipographical typewriter, christianist, Nazi-paedophile-antisemite, quacker, white trash" rants to see what a total whack job he is.
General Zod
2018-11-22 23:29:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Not his best but still of historic interest...……..
Will Dockery
2018-11-27 17:42:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Ginsberg Father Death Blues

Good find, Dudley, thanks for posting.
Good Time Charley
2018-12-07 00:45:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Exhibit A
Sphincter
I hope my good old asshole holds out
60 years it's been mostly OK
Tho in Bolivia a fissure operation
survived the altiplano hospital--
a little blood, no polyps, occasionally
a small hemorrhoid
active, eager, receptive to phallus
coke bottle, candle, carrot
banana & fingers -
Now AIDS makes it shy, but still
eager to serve -
out with the dumps, in with the condom'd
orgasmic friend -
still rubbery muscular,
unashamed wide open for joy
But another 20 years who knows,
old folks got troubles everywhere -
necks, prostates, stomachs, joints--
Hope the old hole stays young
till death, relax
Allen Ginsberg
Exhibit B
Please Master by Allen Ginsberg
Please master can I touch your cheeck
please master can I kneel at your feet
please master can I loosen your blue pants
please master can I gaze at your golden haired belly
please master can I have your thighs bare to my eyes
please master can I take off my clothes below your chair
please master can I can I kiss your ankles and soul
please master can I touch lips to your hard muscle hairless thigh
please master can I lay my ear pressed to your stomach
please master can I wrap my arms around your white ass
please master can I lick your groin gurled with blond soft fur
please master can I touch my tongue to your rosy asshole
please master may I pass my face to your balls,
please master order me down on the floor,
please master tell me to lick your thick shaft
please master put your rough hands on my bald hairy skull
please master press my mouth to your prick-heart
please master press my face into your belly, pull me slowly strong thumbed
till your dumb hardness fills my throat to the base
till I swallow and taste your delicate flesh-hot prick barrel veined Please
Mater push my shoulders away and stare in my eyes, & make me bend over
the table
please master grab my thighs and lift my ass to your waist
please master your hand's rough stroke on my neck your palm down to my
backside
please master push me, my feet on chairs, till my hole feels the breath of
your spit and your thumb stroke
please master make my say Please Master Fuck me now Please
Master grease my balls and hairmouth with sweet vaselines
please master stroke your shaft with white creams
please master touch your cock head to my wrinkled self-hole
please master push it in gently, your elbows enwrapped round my breast
your arms passing down to my belly, my penis you touch w/ your fingers
please master shove it in me a little, a little, a little,
please master sink your droor thing down my behind
& please master make me wiggle my rear to eat up the prick trunk
till my asshalfs cuddle your thighs, my back bent over,
till I'm alone sticking out, your sword stuck throbbing in me
please master pull out and slowly roll onto the bottom
please master lunge it again, and withdraw the tip
please please master fuck me again with your self, please fuck me Please
Master drive down till it hurts me the softness the
Softness please master make love to my ass, give body to center, & fuck me
for good like a girl,
tenderly clasp me please master I take me to thee,
& drive in my belly your selfsame sweet heat-rood
you fingered in solitude Denver or Brooklyn or fucked in a maiden in Paris
carlots
please master drive me thy vehicle, body of love drops, sweat fuck
body of tenderness, Give me your dogh fuck faster
please master make me go moan on the table
Go moan O please master do fuck me like that
in your rhythm thrill-plunge & pull-back-bounce & push down
till I loosen my asshole a dog on the table yelping with terror delight to be
loved
Please master call me a dog, an ass beast, a wet asshole,
& fuck me more violent, my eyes hid with your palms round my skull
& plunge down in a brutal hard lash thru soft drip-fish
& throb thru five seconds to spurt out your semen heat
over & over, bamming it in while I cry out your name I do love you
please Master.
May 1968
Wild poems he was a genius....................
Will Dockery
2019-01-10 15:42:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Again, not my favorite of Allen Ginsberg poems, but even these efforts show his courage and originality in creating poetry.
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-10 15:49:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Again, not my favorite of Allen Ginsberg poems, but even these efforts show his courage and originality in creating poetry.
It's utter garbage.

However, it's a world above the incompetent, illiterate trash that you and Did churn out.
George J. Dance
2019-01-10 17:07:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Again, not my favorite of Allen Ginsberg poems, but even these efforts show his courage and originality in creating poetry.
Thanks to Zod's link, I can see it as a well-constructed dramatic piece; as dramatic in its way as "Howl".

Mind you, I still don't like it, and don't think I ever will, because I just can't "lose myself" in it - I cannot identify with the speaker or see things through his eyes. I realize that's about me, not the poem. However, if I couldn't take responsibility, I'd probably blame it on the poem myself.
Will Dockery
2019-01-10 16:17:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Your jealousy of Allen Ginsberg and his superior poetry is unbecoming, Pendragon.
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-10 16:43:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Your jealousy of Allen Ginsberg and his superior poetry is unbecoming, Pendragon.
Why should you think that, Turd?

I said that his garbage is 1,000x superior to yours.

I'm just not into overwritten, pretentious twaddle about buggering little boys.
Will Dockery
2019-01-10 21:03:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Hey, Michael "gay lamer" Pendragon... I am well aware that Allen Ginsberg was a superior poet to me.

What is pathetic about you is that you somehow think that your second hander sing song doggerel is even in the same league as Ginsberg's poetry...

Or even mine.

😊
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-10 21:28:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Hey, Michael "gay lamer" Pendragon... I am well aware that Allen Ginsberg was a superior poet to me.
What is pathetic about you is that you somehow think that your second hander sing song doggerel is even in the same league as Ginsberg's poetry...
Or even mine.
You do me wrong, Turd... terribly, horribly, mind-numbingly wrong.

I consider my poetry to be a universe (not a world, mind you, nor a galaxy -- but a universe) above Ginsberg's... and Ginsberg's to be a universe above yours.
Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
2019-01-11 07:08:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Shalom & Erev tov, Will...FakeJewScarlotti cannot write, paint, compose, draw, perform, creatively think. He is a shuffling out-patient, known to the chicken hawks on 42nd Street. What is interesting is, each day, aapc is inundated with the pandaemonium of the deep sucking sounds of he and NaziGene's corrugated anal dildos. Both of them share the augmented illusion their racism and adherence to the 4th reich are, somehow, 'artistic'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel ben Avraham v'Rachel Riva:
davening in the musematic dark
General Zod
2019-01-11 10:11:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Shalom & Erev tov, Will...FakeJewScarlotti cannot write, paint, compose, draw, perform, creatively think. He is a shuffling out-patient, known to the chicken hawks on 42nd Street. What is interesting is, each day, aapc is inundated with the pandaemonium of the deep sucking sounds of he and NaziGene's corrugated anal dildos. Both of them share the augmented illusion their racism and adherence to the 4th reich are, somehow, 'artistic'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח
davening in the musematic dark
He is quite a strange character...…………….

Did you see the drawing I made of you and Bob Dylan?
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-11 13:14:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Shalom & Erev tov, Will...FakeJewScarlotti cannot write, paint, compose, draw, perform, creatively think. He is a shuffling out-patient, known to the chicken hawks on 42nd Street. What is interesting is, each day, aapc is inundated with the pandaemonium of the deep sucking sounds of he and NaziGene's corrugated anal dildos. Both of them share the augmented illusion their racism and adherence to the 4th reich are, somehow, 'artistic'.
Speaking of "out-patients":


[The following letter is quoted with typos intact.]


1112 Snyder Lane
Ba kersfield, California
11 July 1967

Dear Forry:

Sorry that I have not written since leaving the hospital, but I have been working with the anti-poverty program, which leaves no free time for much of anything.= I am living with friends, until I can find a decent apartment after my firstpay check: I am earning $1.60 an hour, 20 hours a week, usually in the late evening. I came back from the hospital with only about #20.00, which has long since run out, eating about three times a week; but I feel extremely (handwritten "lucky" inserted) that I even have a roof over my head!

[Large section of gushes over "Famous Monsters" and such snipped; along with a section describing Pick's re-entry into the political scene.]

... Again, please forgive me for the December Affair--I have tried to change my-self (entering the hospital, etc.), and now feel that I have a greater degree of self-honesty and maturity.

Warmest regards,
[handwritten "Stephen"]
S. Pickering.

[End Quote]
Will Dockery
2019-01-11 07:53:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Sure. Pendragon, you can consider anything you want... as long as you don't try to pass your delusions of grandeur off as facts...

:)
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-11 13:27:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Sure. Pendragon, you can consider anything you want... as long as you don't try to pass your delusions of grandeur off as facts...
THE FACTS:

1) Will Dockery is an illiterate hillbilly.
2) Will Dockery is a high school drop out with a GED.
3) Will Dockery has the vocabulary and composition skills of a rather "slow" 4th grader.
4) Will Dockery suffers from a Narcissistic personality disorder.
5) Will Dockery is a 60-year old pizza delivery boy who lives in his brother's shed.
6) Will Dockery is incapable of writing a critical analysis of a poem.
7) Will Dockery rarely writes in complete or intelligible sentences.
8) Will Dockery is one dumbass motherfucker.
9) Will Dockery's familiarity with poetry rarely extends beyond quoted passages he'd read in comic books.
10) Will Dockery spams this newsgroup with his so-called "poetry" until everyone gets sick to death of him, then accuses everyone of being jealous of him.

How's that for a start?
Will Dockery
2019-01-11 18:33:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Sure. Pendragon, you can consider anything you want... as long as you don't try to pass your delusions of grandeur off as facts...
1) Will Dockery is
Apparently your biggest obsession?

Yes, that seems to be a provable fact, Pendragon..

:)
Coco DeSockmonkey
2019-01-11 19:06:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Sure. Pendragon, you can consider anything you want... as long as you don't try to pass your delusions of grandeur off as facts...
1) Will Dockery is
Apparently your biggest obsession?
Yes, that seems to be a provable fact, Pendragon..
11) Delusional.
Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
2019-01-11 19:18:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Sure. Pendragon, you can consider anything you want... as long as you don't try to pass your delusions of grandeur off as facts...
:)
Shalom & Erev tov, Will...FakeJewScarlotti is a broken-down outpatient, collecting his 'psychiatric' diability checks, who cannot write or think coherently. Genuine poets in NYC do not take him seriously on any level, when it was discovered he was plagiarising his nonsense, or writing down hallucinations. Re: 1965-1967, I was in Toronto, and did not type or hand-sign any of the forgeries, nor did I live at any of the addresses in question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel ben Avraham v'Rachel Riva:
davening in the musematic dark
Coco DeSockmonkey
2019-01-11 19:46:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Post by Will Dockery
Sure. Pendragon, you can consider anything you want... as long as you don't try to pass your delusions of grandeur off as facts...
:)
Shalom & Erev tov, Will...FakeJewScarlotti is a broken-down outpatient, collecting his 'psychiatric' diability checks, who cannot write or think coherently. Genuine poets in NYC do not take him seriously on any level, when it was discovered he was plagiarising his nonsense, or writing down hallucinations. Re: 1965-1967, I was in Toronto, and did not type or hand-sign any of the forgeries, nor did I live at any of the addresses in question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I repeat:

[The following letter is quoted with typos intact.]


1112 Snyder Lane
Ba kersfield, California
11 July 1967

Dear Forry:

Sorry that I have not written since leaving the hospital, but I have been working with the anti-poverty program, which leaves no free time for much of anything.= I am living with friends, until I can find a decent apartment after my firstpay check: I am earning $1.60 an hour, 20 hours a week, usually in the late evening. I came back from the hospital with only about #20.00, which has long since run out, eating about three times a week; but I feel extremely (handwritten "lucky" inserted) that I even have a roof over my head!

[Large section of gushes over "Famous Monsters" and such snipped; along with a section describing Pick's re-entry into the political scene.]

... Again, please forgive me for the December Affair--I have tried to change my-self (entering the hospital, etc.), and now feel that I have a greater degree of self-honesty and maturity.

Warmest regards,
[handwritten "Stephen"]
S. Pickering.

[End Quote]
Will Dockery
2019-01-11 19:13:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
For the record, I called you delusional first, Pendragon, when you claimed
yourt poetry is better than Allen Ginsberg's poetry, which is simply an
absurd delusion of grandeur.

:)
Will Dockery
2019-01-11 19:43:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Pendragon does indeed seem to be headed to full blown meltdown mode any day,
now.

His delusion of being a better poet than Allen Ginsberg is just about as
over the top as he can get... or is it?

Stay tuned... no doubt Pen will start spewing his gay lames again soon,
after all, that's all he has left, it seems.

:)
Zod
2019-01-11 21:50:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Pendragon does indeed seem to be headed to full blown meltdown mode any day,
now.
His delusion of being a better poet than Allen Ginsberg is just about as
over the top as he can get... or is it?
Stay tuned... no doubt Pen will start spewing his gay lames again soon,
after all, that's all he has left, it seems.
:)
He is indeed nuts...............
General Zod
2019-01-12 22:36:52 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Pendragon does indeed seem to be headed to full blown meltdown mode any day,
now.
His delusion of being a better poet than Allen Ginsberg is just about as
over the top as he can get... or is it?
Stay tuned... no doubt Pen will start spewing his gay lames again soon,
after all, that's all he has left, it seems.
:)
He seems calmer today.................
Will Dockery
2019-01-11 23:13:48 UTC
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Michael "gay lamer" Pendragon, reposting the same bogus letter, but still unable to prove it isn't a forgery.

😊
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-12 05:02:14 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Michael "gay lamer" Pendragon, reposting the same bogus letter, but still unable to prove it isn't a forgery.
It's from the Syracuse University Library special collections department.

Forrest Ackerman saved it for several decades, and obviously believed it was real.

Since the letters talk about phone conversations between Pick and "Forry," Forrest Ackerman would have known if they were faked.

Which means that the *only* way for them to have been faked would have been for a 48-year old Forrest Ackerman to have written himself a letter from a 16-year old high school Junior -- and to have kept up this "forged" correspondence for the next 3 1/2 years.

And since no one can provide a reasonable explanation as to why he would have done this, common sense dictates that the letters are the real deal.
Will Dockery
2019-01-12 05:04:49 UTC
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Possible reason have been mentioned.
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-12 05:33:09 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Possible reason have been mentioned.
Bullshit.

No plausible explanation has been put forth.
Will Dockery
2019-01-12 06:11:43 UTC
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Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it isn't plausiibe, Pendragon.

:)
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-12 20:44:31 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it isn't plausiibe, Pendragon.
You haven't offered *any* reasons. You've merely said that you could think of several reasons why FJA might have forged the letters.

List your several reasons, why a 48-year old publisher would forge a dozen or so thoroughly uninteresting letters to himself from a 16-year old high school boy over a period of roughly 3 1/2 years.
Will Dockery
2019-01-13 00:16:37 UTC
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Yes, Pendragon is backpedaling nicely...

😊
Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
2019-01-13 02:21:44 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Yes, Pendragon is backpedaling nicely...
😊
Indeed, Will and Zod. I did not live at any of the addresses. I did not type or hand-sign any of the forged letters. From 1965-1967, I was in Toronto, a Patriot of Conscience, and PsychoScarlotti is in no ethical/moral position to lecture anyone about the VietNam era. He is a psychopathic liar. I know two of the names of the forgers involved. Ackerman was caught involved in a similar forgery by Harlan Ellison, who sued and obtained a restraining order. Being deeply, mentally dysfunctional, FakeJewScarlotti thrives on believing his own delusions. As I have iterated before, there are archives containing forgeries; because they are archived does not make them 'authentic'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel ben Avraham v'Rachel Riva:
davening in the musematic dark
General Zod
2019-01-13 02:57:46 UTC
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Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Post by Will Dockery
Yes, Pendragon is backpedaling nicely...
😊
Indeed, Will and Zod. I did not live at any of the addresses. I did not type or hand-sign any of the forged letters. From 1965-1967, I was in Toronto, a Patriot of Conscience, and PsychoScarlotti is in no ethical/moral position to lecture anyone about the VietNam era. He is a psychopathic liar. I know two of the names of the forgers involved. Ackerman was caught involved in a similar forgery by Harlan Ellison, who sued and obtained a restraining order. Being deeply, mentally dysfunctional, FakeJewScarlotti thrives on believing his own delusions. As I have iterated before, there are archives containing forgeries; because they are archived does not make them 'authentic'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח
davening in the musematic dark
Hello Stephan......……

I sent a drawing of you and Bob Dylan in a letter from Dave Dockery to you...……….

You should get it soon...…………...
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-13 03:38:16 UTC
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Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Post by Will Dockery
Yes, Pendragon is backpedaling nicely...
😊
Indeed, Will and Zod. I did not live at any of the addresses. I did not type or hand-sign any of the forged letters. From 1965-1967, I was in Toronto, a Patriot of Conscience, and PsychoScarlotti is in no ethical/moral position to lecture anyone about the VietNam era. He is a psychopathic liar. I know two of the names of the forgers involved. Ackerman was caught involved in a similar forgery by Harlan Ellison, who sued and obtained a restraining order. Being deeply, mentally dysfunctional, FakeJewScarlotti thrives on believing his own delusions. As I have iterated before, there are archives containing forgeries; because they are archived does not make them 'authentic'.
If the letters are fakes, prove it.

Give me one realistic reason why Forry would have forged them.
Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
2019-01-13 04:16:38 UTC
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Shalom & Erev tov, Will and Zod...Ackerman did not forge the letters I did not type or hand-signed (from addresses I've never lived at). I have names of two of the forgers who were acting under Ackerman's tutelage. I was in Toronto 1965-1967. FakeJewScarlotti is a psychopathic liar on 'psychiatric disability' for very obvious reasons. If FJS will provide here a verifiable name and address, proof would be in his hands within days that he is, likely, committing fraud against the county he lives in.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel ben Avraham v'Rachel Riva:
davening in the musematic dark
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-13 06:23:14 UTC
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Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Shalom & Erev tov, Will and Zod...Ackerman did not forge the letters I did not type or hand-signed (from addresses I've never lived at). I have names of two of the forgers who were acting under Ackerman's tutelage. I was in Toronto 1965-1967. FakeJewScarlotti is a psychopathic liar on 'psychiatric disability' for very obvious reasons. If FJS will provide here a verifiable name and address, proof would be in his hands within days that he is, likely, committing fraud against the county he lives in.
Really?

And how did these two forgers manage to discuss "your" previous phone conversation with Forry?

How did Forry not know that you were living in Toronto?

Why would these two forgers spend 3 1/2 years writing boring letters from a 16-19 year old?

How did these two forgers get away with the early letters when you were still attending Bakersfield High and, presumably visiting the Ackermansion?

This story is even less plausible than your previous one where you'd claimed that Forry had dictated the letters to himself.
General Zod
2019-01-14 02:09:54 UTC
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Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Shalom & Erev tov, Will and Zod...Ackerman did not forge the letters I did not type or hand-signed (from addresses I've never lived at). I have names of two of the forgers who were acting under Ackerman's tutelage. I was in Toronto 1965-1967. FakeJewScarlotti is a psychopathic liar on 'psychiatric disability' for very obvious reasons. If FJS will provide here a verifiable name and address, proof would be in his hands within days that he is, likely, committing fraud against the county he lives in.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח
davening in the musematic dark
Thank you sir.........

And I hope you enjoy my drawing of you and Dylan............

In the mail to you now..............
Will Dockery
2019-01-14 03:00:59 UTC
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I suspect FJA was setting up an alibi of sorts with the forged letters.
Michael Pendragon
2019-01-14 04:08:59 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
I suspect FJA was setting up an alibi of sorts with the forged letters.
An alibi for what?

Pick hadn't done anything illegal in June of 1964. And if Forry were sleeping with Pick, the letters wouldn't do anything to dispel any such accusation.
Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
2019-01-14 04:45:27 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
I suspect FJA was setting up an alibi of sorts with the forged letters.
Redd Boggs z"l, the editor/publisher and participant with RIVERSIDE QUARTERLY in Canada alerted to me the existence of the forgeries. He despised Ackerman, viz. in those pre-computer days, Ackerman wanted me to live with him for a period of time to catalogue the stunningly unorganised collection of fanzines and duplicates in the 'garage' of the AckerMansion. I was never compensated. Beyond that fact -- which Redd was aware of, and quite angry about -- I shall not satiate the lying phantasies of FakeJewScarlotti or the fascism of NaziGene. I was there; I was, in effect, a contemporaneous witness to the events. From 1965-1967, I was in Toronto, with excursions to the U.S. when necessary. FakeJewScarlotti is a plagiarising bullshit artist (just like NaziGene, who is now hiding behind fake avatars using your name, Zod, et al.), who stole copies of the forgeries in order to further his own sordid agenda of libel and slander. I did not type or hand-sign them, nor did I live at any of the addresses. FakeJewScarlotti is a broken down outpatient, receiving his 'psychiatric disability' checks, and wandering around 42nd Street reeking in his cloud of lack of hygiene. I tire of his games here, Will.

shalom uv'racha...Stephan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel ben Avraham v'Rachel Riva:
davening in the musematic dark
George J. Dance
2019-01-14 12:48:40 UTC
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Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Post by Will Dockery
I suspect FJA was setting up an alibi of sorts with the forged letters.
Redd Boggs z"l, the editor/publisher and participant with RIVERSIDE QUARTERLY in Canada alerted to me the existence of the forgeries.
Approximately when did Mr. Boggs first contact you about them, Stephan? Can you remember what he said about them, in particular where he found them and how he found out about them?

? He despised Ackerman, viz. in those pre-computer days, Ackerman wanted me to live with him for a period of time to catalogue the stunningly unorganised collection of fanzines and duplicates in the 'garage' of the AckerMansion. I was never compensated.

Perhaps FJA had ulterior motives. He might not have been an actual molester, but just a MAP who liked having young boys around, taking care of them, etc. From the fact you weren't paid, it sounds like he had his own idiosyncratic idea of your relationship. Whatever; AFAIK, trying to psychoanalyze him looks like a big waste of time.
Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
Beyond that fact -- which Redd was aware of, and quite angry about -- I shall not satiate the lying phantasies of FakeJewScarlotti or the fascism of NaziGene.
It's probably best that you don't reply to either of their posts on the subject; or Jim Senetto's, if he feels like getting back into the game under his own name. However, since they keep bringing up this story on aapc, in at least 10 threads now, I think we all have some interest in resolving it. Hence my questions; and I may have more.
Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
I was there; I was, in effect, a contemporaneous witness to the events. From 1965-1967, I was in Toronto, with excursions to the U.S. when necessary.
I'd like to hear more from you about that period in Toronto. Not here, of course; I'd suggest doing that on f/b, where we can talk about it without interrruptions.
Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
FakeJewScarlotti is a plagiarising bullshit artist (just like NaziGene, who is now hiding behind fake avatars using your name, Zod, et al.)
Oh, that reminds me: There is now also a fake "George J. Dance" posting here, too; watch out for that.
Post by Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
, who stole copies of the forgeries in order to further his own sordid agenda of libel and slander. I did not type or hand-sign them, nor did I live at any of the addresses. FakeJewScarlotti is a broken down outpatient, receiving his 'psychiatric disability' checks, and wandering around 42nd Street reeking in his cloud of lack of hygiene. I tire of his games here, Will.
I think that, after a year of this, we're all tired of their games.
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