Discussion:
Three stages of the lyric poet
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Will Dockery
2013-06-22 12:53:27 UTC
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I wanted to pos a response and/or observation to this from George Dance:

"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when
"the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."

But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.

Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.

Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
George Dance
2013-06-22 13:47:22 UTC
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"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when "the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
It is a good idea to put the idea in its own thread. I don't have much to say about it right now, but I can give a reference.

Northrop Frye was a (if not the) major Canadian 20th-century literary critic, and one of the world's top literary critics. He developed this idea in the 1950s, in a series of annual reviews of Canadian poetry that he did for /Books in Canada/, which were collected in his 1971 book on Canadian literature and art, /The Bush Garden/. I read TBG back when it came out, and still have and still use my original print copy. Many of his ideas have stayed with me, such as: It is not the critic's job to tell a writer how to write.

For those interested in Frye, the entire contents of TBG (and several other of his books) are available online in Google Blogspot; TBG's url is:

http://northropfrye-thebushgarden.blogspot.ca/2009/02/preface.html
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Will Dockery
2016-10-27 11:48:52 UTC
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Post by George Dance
"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when "the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
It is a good idea to put the idea in its own thread. I don't have much to say about it right now, but I can give a reference.
Northrop Frye was a (if not the) major Canadian 20th-century literary critic, and one of the world's top literary critics. He developed this idea in the 1950s, in a series of annual reviews of Canadian poetry that he did for /Books in Canada/, which were collected in his 1971 book on Canadian literature and art, /The Bush Garden/. I read TBG back when it came out, and still have and still use my original print copy. Many of his ideas have stayed with me, such as: It is not the critic's job to tell a writer how to write.
http://northropfrye-thebushgarden.blogspot.ca/2009/02/preface.html
I have suddenly become interested in Northrop Frye due to, as I mentioned last night, the focus on him and early Canadian poets in the Leonard Cohen biography I'm listening to when riding in the car (it is an audio book on CD), the early chapters giving the history of the "world" that the poet Leonard Cohen was raised in and entered, a fairly recent field when Cohen arrived, because Canadian poetry and culture was said (by Frye) to have begun somewhat later than that in the U.S. with poets down here such as Eliot and Pound.

Frye's fascinating observation/commentary that Canadian poets were "terrified of nature", is of great interest, describing a world so different from my own sub-tropical land of cotton fields and sultry Southern Gothic dank shadow lands.
Post by George Dance
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Wonder what was up with me, here?

:)
Will Dockery
2016-10-28 05:42:13 UTC
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Good read from the archives.
George J. Dance
2018-02-03 13:44:15 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when "the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
It is a good idea to put the idea in its own thread. I don't have much to say about it right now, but I can give a reference.
Northrop Frye was a (if not the) major Canadian 20th-century literary critic, and one of the world's top literary critics. He developed this idea in the 1950s, in a series of annual reviews of Canadian poetry that he did for /Books in Canada/, which were collected in his 1971 book on Canadian literature and art, /The Bush Garden/. I read TBG back when it came out, and still have and still use my original print copy. Many of his ideas have stayed with me, such as: It is not the critic's job to tell a writer how to write.
http://northropfrye-thebushgarden.blogspot.ca/2009/02/preface.html
I have suddenly become interested in Northrop Frye due to, as I mentioned last night, the focus on him and early Canadian poets in the Leonard Cohen biography I'm listening to when riding in the car (it is an audio book on CD), the early chapters giving the history of the "world" that the poet Leonard Cohen was raised in and entered, a fairly recent field when Cohen arrived, because Canadian poetry and culture was said (by Frye) to have begun somewhat later than that in the U.S. with poets down here such as Eliot and Pound.
Yes. Modern poetry was being written here by the early 20's (the first free verse book, "Open Water," came out in 1919!). The big 4 were A.J.M. Smith, Dorothy Livesay, A.M. Klein, and F.R. Scott. (Yes, the boys all used initials just like T.S. Eliot.) Livesay published early - probably because her mother, Florence Livesay, was a published poet - but the other 3 didn't have books out (thanks to the depression) until WWII; which is when modernism came to Canada.

(Well, the 3 guys did put out an anthology, along with E.J. Pratt - /New Provinces/ - in 1936, but it bombed. (Not as badly as Wallace Stevens's first book, which sold something like 13 copies - but badly.)
Post by Will Dockery
Frye's fascinating observation/commentary that Canadian poets were "terrified of nature", is of great interest, describing a world so different from my own sub-tropical land of cotton fields and sultry Southern Gothic dank shadow lands.
Yes: We lived in a wilderness, where nature was the enemy.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Wonder what was up with me, here?
:)
Richard S. Oakley
2018-02-04 09:56:00 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when "the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
It is a good idea to put the idea in its own thread. I don't have much to say about it right now, but I can give a reference.
Northrop Frye was a (if not the) major Canadian 20th-century literary critic, and one of the world's top literary critics. He developed this idea in the 1950s, in a series of annual reviews of Canadian poetry that he did for /Books in Canada/, which were collected in his 1971 book on Canadian literature and art, /The Bush Garden/. I read TBG back when it came out, and still have and still use my original print copy. Many of his ideas have stayed with me, such as: It is not the critic's job to tell a writer how to write.
http://northropfrye-thebushgarden.blogspot.ca/2009/02/preface.html
I have suddenly become interested in Northrop Frye due to, as I mentioned last night, the focus on him and early Canadian poets in the Leonard Cohen biography I'm listening to when riding in the car (it is an audio book on CD), the early chapters giving the history of the "world" that the poet Leonard Cohen was raised in and entered, a fairly recent field when Cohen arrived, because Canadian poetry and culture was said (by Frye) to have begun somewhat later than that in the U.S. with poets down here such as Eliot and Pound.
Yes. Modern poetry was being written here by the early 20's (the first free verse book, "Open Water," came out in 1919!). The big 4 were A.J.M. Smith, Dorothy Livesay, A.M. Klein, and F.R. Scott. (Yes, the boys all used initials just like T.S. Eliot.) Livesay published early - probably because her mother, Florence Livesay, was a published poet - but the other 3 didn't have books out (thanks to the depression) until WWII; which is when modernism came to Canada.
(Well, the 3 guys did put out an anthology, along with E.J. Pratt - /New Provinces/ - in 1936, but it bombed. (Not as badly as Wallace Stevens's first book, which sold something like 13 copies - but badly.)
Post by Will Dockery
Frye's fascinating observation/commentary that Canadian poets were "terrified of nature", is of great interest, describing a world so different from my own sub-tropical land of cotton fields and sultry Southern Gothic dank shadow lands.
Yes: We lived in a wilderness, where nature was the enemy.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Wonder what was up with me, here?
:)
There's no mention of R.asS.Oakley?
Will Dockery
2018-02-04 10:25:10 UTC
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Post by Richard S. Oakley
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when "the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
It is a good idea to put the idea in its own thread. I don't have much to say about it right now, but I can give a reference.
Northrop Frye was a (if not the) major Canadian 20th-century literary critic, and one of the world's top literary critics. He developed this idea in the 1950s, in a series of annual reviews of Canadian poetry that he did for /Books in Canada/, which were collected in his 1971 book on Canadian literature and art, /The Bush Garden/. I read TBG back when it came out, and still have and still use my original print copy. Many of his ideas have stayed with me, such as: It is not the critic's job to tell a writer how to write.
http://northropfrye-thebushgarden.blogspot.ca/2009/02/preface.html
I have suddenly become interested in Northrop Frye due to, as I mentioned last night, the focus on him and early Canadian poets in the Leonard Cohen biography I'm listening to when riding in the car (it is an audio book on CD), the early chapters giving the history of the "world" that the poet Leonard Cohen was raised in and entered, a fairly recent field when Cohen arrived, because Canadian poetry and culture was said (by Frye) to have begun somewhat later than that in the U.S. with poets down here such as Eliot and Pound.
Yes. Modern poetry was being written here by the early 20's (the first free verse book, "Open Water," came out in 1919!). The big 4 were A.J.M. Smith, Dorothy Livesay, A.M. Klein, and F.R. Scott. (Yes, the boys all used initials just like T.S. Eliot.) Livesay published early - probably because her mother, Florence Livesay, was a published poet - but the other 3 didn't have books out (thanks to the depression) until WWII; which is when modernism came to Canada.
(Well, the 3 guys did put out an anthology, along with E.J. Pratt - /New Provinces/ - in 1936, but it bombed. (Not as badly as Wallace Stevens's first book, which sold something like 13 copies - but badly.)
Post by Will Dockery
Frye's fascinating observation/commentary that Canadian poets were "terrified of nature", is of great interest, describing a world so different from my own sub-tropical land of cotton fields and sultry Southern Gothic dank shadow lands.
Yes: We lived in a wilderness, where nature was the enemy.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Wonder what was up with me, here?
:)
There's no mention of R.asS.Oakley?
You, or another with a similar name, Richard?
Will Dockery
2018-02-04 03:39:19 UTC
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Here nature can be an enemy of sorts, snakes, spiders, poison ivy and so on, sub tropical menace.

😀
Peter J Ross
2013-06-23 01:17:30 UTC
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In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:53:27 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when
"the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Some things never change. After five years or more posting his
unspeakable shit to AAPC, Will Dreckery is still drunk, incoherent and
clueless.

If he ever sobers up, perhaps he'll learn how to wrap text to 78 columns
or less, the way everybody else on Usenet does.
--
PJR :-)

πολλοῖς δ' ἀντιλέγειν μὲν ἔθος περὶ παντὸς ὁμοίως,
ὀρθῶς δ' ἀντιλέγειν, οὐκέτι τοῦτ' ἐν ἔθει. (Euenus)
Hieronymous707
2013-06-23 10:54:59 UTC
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Read me like a stolen passage.
Plagiarized within this message
is a wheel of steel I ride on
Right in front. I am a guidon

lightning rod, though oddly worded.
Standing out I look absurd. Did
You just see the me I mention,
or do boring words sow tension

To your brow, like how you worry
when you're in a real big hurry
to achieve? So leave. Go. Know a day
soon will come for some dumb stowaway.
Will Dockery
2013-06-23 16:49:45 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:53:27 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when
"the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Some things never change. After five years or more posting
to AAPC, Will D. is still drunk, incoherent and
clueless.
If he ever sobers up, perhaps he'll learn how to wrap text to 78 columns
or less, the way everybody else on Usenet does.
EVERYBODY else does this, PJR?
Hieronymous707
2013-06-23 17:38:26 UTC
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Is anybody listening? Can anybody hear me?
I'd like to make a wish. I mean, I want to state it clearly
that I think your fricking nuts are hanging just a little low
and my knee did, unimpeded, wrack them back from two to fro.
There's no need to thank me. Here's a hanky. Wipe your lip.
The Clap's a lapse in thinking. When you're drinking, watch your drip!
General Zod
2019-04-16 08:24:30 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
"..My main man (when it comes to criticism), Northrop Frye, says that lyric poets (in general) pass through three stages: first, poetry full of private allusion; second, a "social, allegorical, or metaphysical phase"; and finally, a time when
"the texture simplifies" and "meaning and imagery become transparent." I'm not sure if this type of thing is really what he means, but I'm generally happy with this sonnet. I'm sure there are many places where it can be improved, of course..."
But with Google groups fouled up and some kind of Saturday morning confusion in the air here at the estate, I reckon it'll have to wait.
Reminds me of some other archetypes right off hand, the old transition from Maiden to Crone in Wiccan Magick for instance.
Be Back soon... it's Helltown, baby.
Fascinating read.....

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