Discussion:
Alfred, Lord Tennyson's visions of Johanna
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Will Dockery
2016-02-16 06:19:39 UTC
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"...a kind of waking trance — this for lack of a better word — I have frequently had, quite up from boyhood, when I have been all alone. . . . All at once, as it were out of the intensity of the consciousness of individuality, the individuality itself seemed to dissolve and fade away into boundless being, and this not a confused state but the clearest, the surest of the surest . . . utterly beyond words — where death was an almost laughable impossibility, the loss of personality (if so it were) seeming no extinction, but the only true life...
...
I am ashamed of my feeble description. Have I not said the state is utterly beyond words?
...
There is no delusion in the matter! It is no nebulous ecstasy, but a state of transcendent wonder, associated with absolute clearness of mind."
-Alfred Tennyson on his own mar'ot johanna...visions of a Johanna
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this was a passage quite familiar to Reb Allen Ginsberg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Fabulous and fantastic, linking Alfred, Lord Tennyson, one of the top Metaphysical poets, right to the visions of Bob Dylan, but little, if no, surprise to me of course.

Lord Tennyson was a favorite study of mine back in 2002 and great influential on my poetry of that day, in particular, my "Mirror Twins" poem/song, with many OBpoem references to Tennyson's visions of Hades and Earth, and all things in between aka Shadowville.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.arts.poetry.comments

On this note, Stephan, I am re-posting this on the Poetry group, where it (and you) should meet with a warmer reception than the wannabe FOX-News commentators that litter the Dylan group, here, can seem to find in their hearts and sould to manage.

Rachel may agree (as she and Chris joined us there some time ago), there are some fine folks in the poetry fold.

And we shall make it so.

:)
Will Dockery
2016-02-17 03:25:47 UTC
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Well, Alfred, Lord Tennyson was a member of the "Metaphysical Society" for about a decade, in what appears to have been a revival, or reboot of sorts, the Metaphysical studies and discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_Society

The Metaphysical Society was a British society, founded in 1869 by James Knowles. Many of its members were prominent clergymen.

Papers were read and discussed at meetings on such subjects as the ultimate grounds of belief in the objective and moral sciences, the immortality of the soul, etc. A description of one of the meetings was given by Magee (then Bishop of Peterborough) in a letter of February 13, 1873.

Archbishop Manning in the chair was flanked by two Protestant bishops right and left; on my right was Hutton, editor of the Spectator, an Arian; then came Father Dalgairns, a very able Roman Catholic priest; opposite him Lord A. Russell, a Deist; then two Scotch metaphysical writers, Freethinkers; then Knowles, the very broad editor of the Contemporary; then, dressed as a layman and looking like a country squire, was Ward, formerly Rev. Ward, and earliest of the perverts to Rome; then Greg, author of The Creed of Christendom, a Deist; then Froude, the historian, once a deacon in our Church, now a Deist; then Roden Noël, an actual Atheist and red republican, and looking very like one! Lastly Ruskin, who read a paper on miracles, which we discussed for an hour and a half! Nothing could be calmer, fairer, or even, on the whole, more reverent than the discussion. In my opinion, we, the Christians, had much the best of it. Dalgairns, the priest, was very masterly; Manning, clever and precise and weighty; Froude, very acute, and so was Greg. We only wanted a Jew and a Muslim to make our Religious Museum complete (Life, i. 284).

The last meeting of the society was held on May 16, 1880 and it was dissolved later in November of that year.[1] Huxley said that it died "of too much love"; Tennyson, "because after ten years of strenuous effort no one had succeeded in even defining metaphysics." According to Dean Stanley, "We all meant the same thing if we only knew it."

The members from first to last were as follows:[2]
Dean Stanley, of Westminster Abbey
John Robert Seeley, English essayist and historian.
Roden Noël, poet
James Martineau, English philosopher
William Benjamin Carpenter, physiologist and naturalist
James Hinton, surgeon and author
Thomas Henry Huxley, Darwinist biologist
John Tyndall, physicist
Charles Pritchard, astronomer
Richard Holt Hutton, writer and theologian.
William George Ward, Catholic theologian
Walter Bagehot, economist and editor
James Anthony Froude, historian
Alfred Tennyson, Poet Laureate
Alfred Barry
Lord Arthur Russell, British politician
William Ewart Gladstone, Liberal Prime Minister
Henry Edward Manning, Archbishop and Cardinal
James Knowles, architect and editor
John Lubbock, 1st Baron Avebury
Henry Alford, churchman, scholar, and poet
Alexander Grant[disambiguation needed]
Connop Thirlwall
Frederic Harrison
Father Dalgairns
Sir George Grove
Shadworth Hodgson
Henry Sidgwick
Edmund Lushington
Bishop Charles Ellicott
Mark Pattison
George Campbell, 8th Duke of Argyll
John Ruskin
Robert Lowe, 1st Viscount Sherbrooke
Sir Mountstuart Elphinstone Grant-Duff
William Rathbone Greg
Alexander Campbell Fraser
Henry Acland
John Frederick Denison Maurice
Archbishop Thomson
Thomas Mozely
Richard William Church
William Connor Magee
George Croom Robertson
James Fitzjames Stephen
James Joseph Sylvester
John Charles Bucknill
Andrew Clark
William Kingdon Clifford
St George Mivart
Matthew Piers Watt Boulton, classicist and amateur scientist
William Waldegrave Palmer, 2nd Earl of Selborne
John Morley
Leslie Stephen
Frederick Pollock
Francis Aidan Gasquet
C Barnes Upton
William Withey Gull
Robert Clarke
Arthur James Balfour
James Sully
Alfred Barratt

And so... well, you know.
Will Dockery
2016-02-17 04:28:30 UTC
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On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 19:24:42 -0800 (PST), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:16:58 -0800 (PST), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
"...a kind of waking trance?--?this for lack of a better word?-- I have frequently had, quite up from boyhood, when I have been all alone. . . . All at once, as it were out of the intensity of the consciousness of individuality, the individuality itself seemed to dissolve and fade away into boundless being, and this not a confused state but the clearest, the surest of the surest . . . utterly beyond words --?where death was an almost laughable impossibility, the loss of personality (if so it were) seeming no extinction, but the only true life...
...
I am ashamed of my feeble description. Have I not said the state is utterly beyond words?
...
There is no delusion in the matter! It is no nebulous ecstasy, but a state of transcendent wonder, associated with absolute clearness of mind."
-Alfred Tennyson on his own mar'ot johanna...visions of a Johanna
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this was a passage quite familiar to Reb Allen Ginsberg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / ??? ?"? ?? ?????
Torah ????? Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
????? ??? ?? ??????
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Fabulous and fantastic, linking Alfred, Lord Tennyson, one of the top Metaphysical poets, right to the visions of Bob Dylan, but little, if no, surprise to me of course.
Lord Tennyson was a favorite study of mine back in 2002 and great influential on my poetry of that day, in particular, my "Mirro Twins" poem/song, with many OBpoem references to Tennyson's visions of Hades and Earth, and all things in between aka Shadowville.
I haven't paid much attention to poetry for many years (one of my
faults), but if I remember correctly Tennyson was not one of the
Metaphysical poets, who were in vogue primarily during the 17th
century. Tennyson wasn't born until the early 19th century. Feel free
to correct me if I'm wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_Society
The Metaphysical Society was a British society, founded in 1869 by James Knowles. Many of its members were prominent clergymen.
Papers were read and discussed at meetings on such subjects as the ultimate grounds of belief in the objective and moral sciences, the immortality of the soul, etc. A description of one of the meetings was given by Magee (then Bishop of Peterborough) in a letter of February 13, 1873.
Archbishop Manning in the chair was flanked by two Protestant bishops right and left; on my right was Hutton, editor of the Spectator, an Arian; then came Father Dalgairns, a very able Roman Catholic priest; opposite him Lord A. Russell, a Deist; then two Scotch metaphysical writers, Freethinkers; then Knowles, the very broad editor of the Contemporary; then, dressed as a layman and looking like a country squire, was Ward, formerly Rev. Ward, and earliest of the perverts to Rome; then Greg, author of The Creed of Christendom, a Deist; then Froude, the historian, once a deacon in our Church, now a Deist; then Roden Noël, an actual Atheist and red republican, and looking very like one! Lastly Ruskin, who read a paper on miracles, which we discussed for an hour and a half! Nothing could be calmer, fairer, or even, on the whole, more reverent than the discussion. In my opinion, we, the Christians, had much the best of it. Dalgairns, the priest, was very masterly; Manning, clever and
precise and weighty; Froude, very acute, and so was Greg. We only wanted a Jew and a Muslim to make our Religious Museum complete (Life, i. 284).
The last meeting of the society was held on May 16, 1880 and it was dissolved later in November of that year.[1] Huxley said that it died "of too much love"; Tennyson, "because after ten years of strenuous effort no one had succeeded in even defining metaphysics." According to Dean Stanley, "We all meant the same thing if we only knew it."
The members from first to last were as follows:[2]
<list snipped>
While a few poets, including Tennyson, were members of TMS, it appears
that its purpose was oriented towards philosophical discussions rather
than poetry. I've done a bit of poking around online and haven't
really found anything that would indicate that Tennyson was considered
a Metaphysical Poet.
https://cve.revues.org/524#tocto1n1
The Metaphysical Society and its Initial Aims
7The members of the Metaphysical Society met once a month, 9 times a
year (when Parliament was sitting), generally at the Grosvenor Hotel
in London, to dine together and then listen to the paper one of them
would give on a metaphysical subject, or on mostly anything to do with
faith or science. They were not a secret society in any way, but they
were discreet about their ways as, for some of them, their involvement
could endanger their reputation. They were an odd combination of
persons and, to accept such debates, they must all have felt a
pressing moral and social duty to help society in the 1870s.
I'm not a real expert on old svhool poetry, but I know a little bit, and know what I like.

We /do/ have at least two experts on the older poets and forms over at the Poetry newsgroup

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.dylan/3UZrCCsSHe8/1rLDq_QrBQAJ

So I'm directing your questions there... please come join us, I'm sure there will be numerous and intelli9gent replies there almost immediately.

Thanks for the interest in poetry, JK, truly a form of art on its last legs, almost, in the popular culture.

:)
General Zod
2019-04-16 07:59:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 19:24:42 -0800 (PST), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 22:16:58 -0800 (PST), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
"...a kind of waking trance?--?this for lack of a better word?-- I have frequently had, quite up from boyhood, when I have been all alone. . . . All at once, as it were out of the intensity of the consciousness of individuality, the individuality itself seemed to dissolve and fade away into boundless being, and this not a confused state but the clearest, the surest of the surest . . . utterly beyond words --?where death was an almost laughable impossibility, the loss of personality (if so it were) seeming no extinction, but the only true life...
...
I am ashamed of my feeble description. Have I not said the state is utterly beyond words?
...
There is no delusion in the matter! It is no nebulous ecstasy, but a state of transcendent wonder, associated with absolute clearness of mind."
-Alfred Tennyson on his own mar'ot johanna...visions of a Johanna
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this was a passage quite familiar to Reb Allen Ginsberg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / ??? ?"? ?? ?????
Torah ????? Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
????? ??? ?? ??????
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Fabulous and fantastic, linking Alfred, Lord Tennyson, one of the top Metaphysical poets, right to the visions of Bob Dylan, but little, if no, surprise to me of course.
Lord Tennyson was a favorite study of mine back in 2002 and great influential on my poetry of that day, in particular, my "Mirro Twins" poem/song, with many OBpoem references to Tennyson's visions of Hades and Earth, and all things in between aka Shadowville.
I haven't paid much attention to poetry for many years (one of my
faults), but if I remember correctly Tennyson was not one of the
Metaphysical poets, who were in vogue primarily during the 17th
century. Tennyson wasn't born until the early 19th century. Feel free
to correct me if I'm wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_Society
The Metaphysical Society was a British society, founded in 1869 by James Knowles. Many of its members were prominent clergymen.
Papers were read and discussed at meetings on such subjects as the ultimate grounds of belief in the objective and moral sciences, the immortality of the soul, etc. A description of one of the meetings was given by Magee (then Bishop of Peterborough) in a letter of February 13, 1873.
Archbishop Manning in the chair was flanked by two Protestant bishops right and left; on my right was Hutton, editor of the Spectator, an Arian; then came Father Dalgairns, a very able Roman Catholic priest; opposite him Lord A. Russell, a Deist; then two Scotch metaphysical writers, Freethinkers; then Knowles, the very broad editor of the Contemporary; then, dressed as a layman and looking like a country squire, was Ward, formerly Rev. Ward, and earliest of the perverts to Rome; then Greg, author of The Creed of Christendom, a Deist; then Froude, the historian, once a deacon in our Church, now a Deist; then Roden Noël, an actual Atheist and red republican, and looking very like one! Lastly Ruskin, who read a paper on miracles, which we discussed for an hour and a half! Nothing could be calmer, fairer, or even, on the whole, more reverent than the discussion. In my opinion, we, the Christians, had much the best of it. Dalgairns, the priest, was very masterly; Manning, clever and
precise and weighty; Froude, very acute, and so was Greg. We only wanted a Jew and a Muslim to make our Religious Museum complete (Life, i. 284).
The last meeting of the society was held on May 16, 1880 and it was dissolved later in November of that year.[1] Huxley said that it died "of too much love"; Tennyson, "because after ten years of strenuous effort no one had succeeded in even defining metaphysics." According to Dean Stanley, "We all meant the same thing if we only knew it."
The members from first to last were as follows:[2]
<list snipped>
While a few poets, including Tennyson, were members of TMS, it appears
that its purpose was oriented towards philosophical discussions rather
than poetry. I've done a bit of poking around online and haven't
really found anything that would indicate that Tennyson was considered
a Metaphysical Poet.
https://cve.revues.org/524#tocto1n1
The Metaphysical Society and its Initial Aims
7The members of the Metaphysical Society met once a month, 9 times a
year (when Parliament was sitting), generally at the Grosvenor Hotel
in London, to dine together and then listen to the paper one of them
would give on a metaphysical subject, or on mostly anything to do with
faith or science. They were not a secret society in any way, but they
were discreet about their ways as, for some of them, their involvement
could endanger their reputation. They were an odd combination of
persons and, to accept such debates, they must all have felt a
pressing moral and social duty to help society in the 1870s.
I'm not a real expert on old svhool poetry, but I know a little bit, and know what I like.
We /do/ have at least two experts on the older poets and forms over at the Poetry newsgroup
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.dylan/3UZrCCsSHe8/1rLDq_QrBQAJ
So I'm directing your questions there... please come join us, I'm sure there will be numerous and intelli9gent replies there almost immediately.
Thanks for the interest in poetry, JK, truly a form of art on its last legs, almost, in the popular culture.
:)
Good play and read....

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