Discussion:
T. S. Eliot's Essay on the "Metaphysical Poets" ?
(too old to reply)
Will Dockery
2016-02-17 04:53:17 UTC
Permalink
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
In the meantime, here's T.S. Eliot writing about the Metaphysical Poets, and writing some interesting sentences:

http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm

"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."

"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.

"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.

On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.

If you can dig that you are quite loyal.

:)

"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne

"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."

This is great, and worth a post all alone:

"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot

That's about it for now.
Michael Pendragon
2016-02-17 08:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
On a synchronistic note, I was just mentioning the neo-Platonic and transformistic qualities of my own writings in the "Los Angeles Rain / by my mother / from Rachel" thread.

Not that I consider myself to be a metaphysical poet, per se, but I feel that all good poetry touches on the metaphysical to some degree.

Which is, of course, in keeping with the Divine Word of our Lord who was something of a metaphysical poet Himself:

"...the point, I mean, that Beauty is the sole legitimate province of the poem. A few words, however, in elucidation of my real meaning, which some of my friends have evinced a disposition to misrepresent. That pleasure which is at once the most intense, the most elevating, and the most pure, is, I believe, found in the contemplation of the beautiful. When, indeed, men speak of Beauty, they mean, precisely, not a quality, as is supposed, but an effect -- they refer, in short, just to that intense and pure elevation of soul -- not of intellect, or of heart -- upon which I have commented, and which is experienced in consequence of contemplating 'the beautiful.' Now I designate Beauty as the province of the poem, merely because it is an obvious rule of Art that effects should be made to spring from direct causes -- that objects should be attained through means best adapted for their attainment -- no one as yet having been weak enough to deny that the peculiar elevation alluded to is most readily attained in the poem." -- The Philosophy of Composition:13:2-5.
Will Dockery
2016-02-17 10:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
On a synchronistic note, I was just mentioning the neo-Platonic and transformistic qualities of my own writings in the "Los Angeles Rain / by my mother / from Rachel" thread.
Not that I consider myself to be a metaphysical poet, per se, but I feel that all good poetry touches on the metaphysical to some degree.
"...the point, I mean, that Beauty is the sole legitimate province of the poem. A few words, however, in elucidation of my real meaning, which some of my friends have evinced a disposition to misrepresent. That pleasure which is at once the most intense, the most elevating, and the most pure, is, I believe, found in the contemplation of the beautiful. When, indeed, men speak of Beauty, they mean, precisely, not a quality, as is supposed, but an effect -- they refer, in short, just to that intense and pure elevation of soul -- not of intellect, or of heart -- upon which I have commented, and which is experienced in consequence of contemplating 'the beautiful.' Now I designate Beauty as the province of the poem, merely because it is an obvious rule of Art that effects should be made to spring from direct causes -- that objects should be attained through means best adapted for their attainment -- no one as yet having been weak enough to deny that the peculiar elevation alluded to is most readily attained in the poem." -- The Philosophy of Composition:13:2-5.
Thanks, Michael... I'll go back to that thread and look for it.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
"...a kind of waking trance?--?this for lack of a better word?-- I have frequently had, quite up from boyhood, when I have been all alone. . . . All at once, as it were out of the intensity of the consciousness of individuality, the individuality itself seemed to dissolve and fade away into boundless being, and this not a confused state but the clearest, the surest of the surest . . . utterly beyond words --?where death was an almost laughable impossibility, the loss of personality (if so it were) seeming no extinction, but the only true life...
...
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
I am ashamed of my feeble description. Have I not said the state is utterly beyond words?
...
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
There is no delusion in the matter! It is no nebulous ecstasy, but a state of transcendent wonder, associated with absolute clearness of mind."
-Alfred Tennyson on his own mar'ot johanna...visions of a Johanna
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this was a passage quite familiar to Reb Allen Ginsberg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / ??? ?"? ?? ?????
Torah ????? Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
????? ??? ?? ??????
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Fabulous and fantastic, linking Alfred, Lord Tennyson, one of the top Metaphysical poets, right to the visions of Bob Dylan, but little, if no, surprise to me of course.
Lord Tennyson was a favorite study of mine back in 2002 and great influential on my poetry of that day, in particular, my "Mirro Twins" poem/song, with many OBpoem references to Tennyson's visions of Hades and Earth, and all things in between aka Shadowville.
I haven't paid much attention to poetry for many years (one of my
faults), but if I remember correctly Tennyson was not one of the
Metaphysical poets, who were in vogue primarily during the 17th
century. Tennyson wasn't born until the early 19th century. Feel free
to correct me if I'm wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_Society
The Metaphysical Society was a British society, founded in 1869 by James Knowles. Many of its members were prominent clergymen.
Papers were read and discussed at meetings on such subjects as the ultimate grounds of belief in the objective and moral sciences, the immortality of the soul, etc. A description of one of the meetings was given by Magee (then Bishop of Peterborough) in a letter of February 13, 1873.
Archbishop Manning in the chair was flanked by two Protestant bishops right and left; on my right was Hutton, editor of the Spectator, an Arian; then came Father Dalgairns, a very able Roman Catholic priest; opposite him Lord A. Russell, a Deist; then two Scotch metaphysical writers, Freethinkers; then Knowles, the very broad editor of the Contemporary; then, dressed as a layman and looking like a country squire, was Ward, formerly Rev. Ward, and earliest of the perverts to Rome; then Greg, author of The Creed of Christendom, a Deist; then Froude, the historian, once a deacon in our Church, now a Deist; then Roden Noël, an actual Atheist and red republican, and looking very like one! Lastly Ruskin, who read a paper on miracles, which we discussed for an hour and a half! Nothing could be calmer, fairer, or even, on the whole, more reverent than the discussion. In my opinion, we, the Christians, had much the best of it. Dalgairns, the priest, was very masterly; Manning, clever and
precise and weighty; Froude, very acute, and so was Greg. We only wanted a Jew and a Muslim to make our Religious Museum complete (Life, i. 284).
The last meeting of the society was held on May 16, 1880 and it was dissolved later in November of that year.[1] Huxley said that it died "of too much love"; Tennyson, "because after ten years of strenuous effort no one had succeeded in even defining metaphysics." According to Dean Stanley, "We all meant the same thing if we only knew it."
The members from first to last were as follows:[2]
<list snipped>
While a few poets, including Tennyson, were members of TMS, it appears
that its purpose was oriented towards philosophical discussions rather
than poetry. I've done a bit of poking around online and haven't
really found anything that would indicate that Tennyson was considered
a Metaphysical Poet.
https://cve.revues.org/524#tocto1n1
The Metaphysical Society and its Initial Aims
7The members of the Metaphysical Society met once a month, 9 times a
year (when Parliament was sitting), generally at the Grosvenor Hotel
in London, to dine together and then listen to the paper one of them
would give on a metaphysical subject, or on mostly anything to do with
faith or science. They were not a secret society in any way, but they
were discreet about their ways as, for some of them, their involvement
could endanger their reputation. They were an odd combination of
persons and, to accept such debates, they must all have felt a
pressing moral and social duty to help society in the 1870s.
Did they dine on Sweetbreads? :)
Why yes, yes I believe they did! With a Champagne sauce, of course.
I don't think I've ever even *heard* of a champ-ain sauce! Maybe a lobster *cream* sauce... ;-)
Next time you converse with our Poetry trolls, ask them about Chuck's famous red lobster sauce. That used to keep them rolling in the aisles for weeks, months, years there... thousands of posts about "Chuck's red sauce".

:)

Just bringing it all back home where this discussion can move forward.

The floor is yours now, Mr. Pendragon.

:D
Will Dockery
2016-02-17 19:35:45 UTC
Permalink
"The awful daring of a moment's surrender
Which an age of prudence can never retract
By this, and this only, we have existed
Which is not to be found in our obituaries" - T.S. Eliot
Post by Will Dockery
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
That essay by Eliot could serve as the basis of a final exam in English poetry. Thanks for the pointer. However, I leave it with no better sense of what a Metaphysical poet is than before I read it. I'm equally in the dark about what is Romantic about Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Byron, Coleridge, and Shelley. And I was (supposedly) an English major.
Hello Wille, Michael Pendragon has posted some fairly illuminating words on the Metaphysical poets over at:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.arts.poetry.comments

The posts span a couple of threads, and I might excerpt them here, but it might be easier just to refer you and anyone else with an interest that way, and ask Pendragon, and George Dance (the two Usenet experts I generally pose difficult poetry questions to) for details... I think I invited you over before, but I'm doing it again.

Oh yeah, you asked about the "She Sleeps Tight" lyrics a month or so ago... did you ever find them when I posted them for you? I don't think I saw a response for you

And... so we make it so.
Will Dockery
2016-02-17 19:32:32 UTC
Permalink
"The awful daring of a moment's surrender
Which an age of prudence can never retract
By this, and this only, we have existed
Which is not to be found in our obituaries" - T.S. Eliot
Post by Will Dockery
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
That essay by Eliot could serve as the basis of a final exam in English poetry. Thanks for the pointer. However, I leave it with no better sense of what a Metaphysical poet is than before I read it. I'm equally in the dark about what is Romantic about Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Byron, Coleridge, and Shelley. And I was (supposedly) an English major.
Hello Wille, Michael Pendragon has posted some fairly illuminating words on the Metaphysical poets over at:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.arts.poetry.comments

The posts span a couple of threads, and I might excerpt them here, but it might be easier just to refer you and anyone else with an interest that way, and ask Pendragon, and George Dance (the two Usenet experts I generally pose difficult poetry questions to) for details... I think I invited you over before, but I'm doing it again.

Oh yeah, you asked about the "She Sleeps Tight" lyrics a month or so ago... did you ever find them when I posted them for you? I don't think I saw a response for you

And... so we make it so.
George Dance
2016-02-18 17:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
That's the one. I noticed the link "The Metaphysical Poets, by T.S. Eliot" on the bottom of the PPP and Wikipedia articles, clicked it, and it led to a copy of that review. (I've changed the description and link on the PPP one.)
Post by Will Dockery
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
Will Dockery
2016-02-18 19:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
Post by George Dance
That's the one. I noticed the link "The Metaphysical Poets, by T.S. Eliot" on the bottom of the PPP and Wikipedia articles, clicked it, and it led to a copy of that review. (I've changed the description and link on the PPP one.)
Good to see you, George... stop and sit a spell soon, y'hear?

:)
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
George Dance
2016-02-20 19:09:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
Post by George Dance
That's the one. I noticed the link "The Metaphysical Poets, by T.S. Eliot" on the bottom of the PPP and Wikipedia articles, clicked it, and it led to a copy of that review. (I've changed the description and link on the PPP one.)
Good to see you, George... stop and sit a spell soon, y'hear?
:)
Well, what free time I have still mostly goes into the wiki, with the blogs second; but I have kept reading.

Which reminds me: in another thread, which I've lost, you invited me to use any of your posted poems on the blog. To tell you the truth, I've been looking and reading, though, as you've posted so much recently, I'm sure I've missed more than I've read.

As you probably have seen, the blog has taken on a bit of a theme; it's a venue for seasonal or occasional poetry. That's what I've been looking for in your poems, and haven't found the right thing yet. Not necessarily a poem about a time of year: just one that recognizably takes place in a time of year (which would be early or late March, if I'm to get anything on the soonest; February's already spoken for.) Maybe you can help me out on that score, by pointing me to something that I may have overlooked. (If you don't have anything for March, by all means point me to poems that take place in other times; I'll add them to the pile for publication at the right time.)
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
Will Dockery
2016-02-20 19:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
Post by George Dance
That's the one. I noticed the link "The Metaphysical Poets, by T.S. Eliot" on the bottom of the PPP and Wikipedia articles, clicked it, and it led to a copy of that review. (I've changed the description and link on the PPP one.)
Good to see you, George... stop and sit a spell soon, y'hear?
:)
Well, what free time I have still mostly goes into the wiki, with the blogs second; but I have kept reading.
Which reminds me: in another thread, which I've lost, you invited me to use any of your posted poems on the blog. To tell you the truth, I've been looking and reading, though, as you've posted so much recently, I'm sure I've missed more than I've read.
As you probably have seen, the blog has taken on a bit of a theme; it's a venue for seasonal or occasional poetry. That's what I've been looking for in your poems, and haven't found the right thing yet. Not necessarily a poem about a time of year: just one that recognizably takes place in a time of year (which would be early or late March, if I'm to get anything on the soonest; February's already spoken for.) Maybe you can help me out on that score, by pointing me to something that I may have overlooked. (If you don't have anything for March, by all means point me to poems that take place in other times; I'll add them to the pile for publication at the right time.)
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
A quick hello while you are here, George, since that is kind of rare these days.

Did you see my offer of a poem of your choice of mine for your Blog?

This is the one I'm promoting as the "fresh" one aka single, or current release... it could fit in for spring, or the moon/june/croon season:

Check out the free download of the day: "She Loves Bossa Nova" / Will Dockery & Brian Mallard:
https://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery/song/25277871-she-loves-bossa-nova--will-dockery?0

She Loves Bossa Nova

She loves Bossa Nova
rare steaks
rain sticks
Sinatra.
And red red wine.

She's real
and sometimes sparks
with spoken words
spoken loud.
Just like the
Statue of Liberty.
Standing tall and proud
Along the long way
long way around.

Brown sugar baby
backyard blues
Maybe it was intimidation
quiet infatuation.
I was coming down home
fell down, down, down
into silver blazing dawn.

On the long way
overheard on the sidewalk
she said "I love you."
somehow I did not understand.
Overheard on the street
out on the sidewalk
taking the long way
long way around.

I didn't know
she was crying.
I didn't think
it'd be that way
didn't think
she would get so serious.
The guitar played
C, D...

She likes city lights
she could name all the Saints.
And the darkness
she said it made her so lonely.

She loves Bossa Nova
rare steaks
rain sticks
Sinatra.
And red red wine.
On the long way
long way around.

-Will Dockery

Let me know... if you are still here today.

:)
George Dance
2016-02-20 20:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
Post by George Dance
That's the one. I noticed the link "The Metaphysical Poets, by T.S. Eliot" on the bottom of the PPP and Wikipedia articles, clicked it, and it led to a copy of that review. (I've changed the description and link on the PPP one.)
Good to see you, George... stop and sit a spell soon, y'hear?
:)
Well, what free time I have still mostly goes into the wiki, with the blogs second; but I have kept reading.
Which reminds me: in another thread, which I've lost, you invited me to use any of your posted poems on the blog. To tell you the truth, I've been looking and reading, though, as you've posted so much recently, I'm sure I've missed more than I've read.
As you probably have seen, the blog has taken on a bit of a theme; it's a venue for seasonal or occasional poetry. That's what I've been looking for in your poems, and haven't found the right thing yet. Not necessarily a poem about a time of year: just one that recognizably takes place in a time of year (which would be early or late March, if I'm to get anything on the soonest; February's already spoken for.) Maybe you can help me out on that score, by pointing me to something that I may have overlooked. (If you don't have anything for March, by all means point me to poems that take place in other times; I'll add them to the pile for publication at the right time.)
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
A quick hello while you are here, George, since that is kind of rare these days.
Did you see my offer of a poem of your choice of mine for your Blog?
Yes. That's what I was alluding to, above. I always look at your poems (and Jimmy's and Michael's) with one eye on putting them on the blog; and your invitation just accelerated the process.
Post by Will Dockery
https://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery/song/25277871-she-loves-bossa-nova--will-dockery?0
She Loves Bossa Nova
She loves Bossa Nova
rare steaks
rain sticks
Sinatra.
And red red wine.
She's real
and sometimes sparks
with spoken words
spoken loud.
Just like the
Statue of Liberty.
Standing tall and proud
Along the long way
long way around.
Brown sugar baby
backyard blues
Maybe it was intimidation
quiet infatuation.
I was coming down home
fell down, down, down
into silver blazing dawn.
On the long way
overheard on the sidewalk
she said "I love you."
somehow I did not understand.
Overheard on the street
out on the sidewalk
taking the long way
long way around.
I didn't know
she was crying.
I didn't think
it'd be that way
didn't think
she would get so serious.
The guitar played
C, D...
She likes city lights
she could name all the Saints.
And the darkness
she said it made her so lonely.
She loves Bossa Nova
rare steaks
rain sticks
Sinatra.
And red red wine.
On the long way
long way around.
-Will Dockery
Let me know... if you are still here today.
Maybe it'll be the one; depends what I can find to pair it with that weekend, I suppose. (Might have gone with Symons's "Episode of a Night in May" I used last year, but that opportunity's lost.) I'll keep a note of it, in my "Spring" pile, for now. Thank you for pointing it out.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
Will Dockery
2016-03-13 16:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
http://www.uwyo.edu/numimage/eliot_metaphysical_poets.htm
Post by George Dance
That's the one. I noticed the link "The Metaphysical Poets, by T.S. Eliot" on the bottom of the PPP and Wikipedia articles, clicked it, and it led to a copy of that review. (I've changed the description and link on the PPP one.)
Good to see you, George... stop and sit a spell soon, y'hear?
:)
Well, what free time I have still mostly goes into the wiki, with the blogs second; but I have kept reading.
Which reminds me: in another thread, which I've lost, you invited me to use any of your posted poems on the blog. To tell you the truth, I've been looking and reading, though, as you've posted so much recently, I'm sure I've missed more than I've read.
As you probably have seen, the blog has taken on a bit of a theme; it's a venue for seasonal or occasional poetry. That's what I've been looking for in your poems, and haven't found the right thing yet. Not necessarily a poem about a time of year: just one that recognizably takes place in a time of year (which would be early or late March, if I'm to get anything on the soonest; February's already spoken for.) Maybe you can help me out on that score, by pointing me to something that I may have overlooked. (If you don't have anything for March, by all means point me to poems that take place in other times; I'll add them to the pile for publication at the right time.)
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
"By collecting these poems from the work of a generation more often named than read, and more often read than profitably studied..."
"Not only is it extremely difficult to define metaphysical poetry, but difficult to decide what poets practise it and in which of their verses. The poetry of Donne (to whom Marvell and Bishop King are sometimes nearer than any of the other authors) is late Elizabethan, its feeling often very close to that of Chapman. The "courtly" poetry is derivative from Jonson, who borrowed liberally from the Latin; it expires in the next century with the sentiment and witticism of Prior. There is finally the devotional verse of Herbert, Vaughan, and Crashaw (echoed long after by Christina Rossetti and Francis Thompson); Crashaw..." -A pretty ood listing of who Eliot considers the main members of the M.P. group.
"...It is difficult to find any precise use of metaphor, simile, or other conceit, which is common to all the poets and at the same time important enough as an element of style to isolate these poets as a group. Donne, and often Cowley, employ a device which is sometimes considered characteristically "metaphysical"; the elaboration (contrasted with the condensation) of a figure of speech to the farthest stage to which ingenuity can carry it. Thus Cowley develops the commonplace comparison of the world to a chess-board through long stanzas (To Destiny), and Donne, with more grace, in A Valediction, the comparison of two lovers to a pair of compasses. But elsewhere we find, instead of the mere explication of the content of a comparison, a development by rapid association of thought which requires considerable agility on the part of the reader.
On a round ball
A workman that hath copies by, can lay
An Europe, Afrique, and an Asia,
And quickly make that, which was nothing, All,
So doth each teare,
Which thee doth weare,
A globe, yea, world by that impression grow,
Till thy tears mixt with mine doe overflow
This world, by waters sent from thee, my heaven dissolved so.
If you can dig that you are quite loyal.
:)
"A bracelet of bright hair about the bone..." -Donne
"Johnson, who employed the term "metaphysical poets," apparently having Donne, Cleveland, and Cowley chiefly in mind..."
"The difference is not a simple difference of degree between poets. It is something which had happened to the mind of England between the time of Donne or Lord Herbert of Cherbury and the time of Tennyson and Browning; it is the difference between the intellectual poet and the reflective poet. Tennyson and Browning are poets, and they think; but they do not feel their thought as immediately as the odour of a rose. A thought to Donne was an experience; it modified his sensibility. When a poet's mind is perfectly equipped for its work, it is constantly amalgamating disparate experience; the ordinary man's experience is chaotic, irregular, fragmentary. The latter falls in love, or reads Spinoza, and these two experiences have nothing to do with each other, or with the noise of the typewriter or the smell of cooking; in the mind of the poet these experiences are always forming new wholes..." -T.S. Eliot
That's about it for now.
It has been a while since we touched on these points, George... perhaps something of my poetry will fit into the April, National Poetry Month, celebrations?
Will Dockery
2016-02-19 19:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Maybe instead of labeling those poets as Metaphysical or not, we should label them as Liberal (Jeffersonian) vs. Conservative (Hamiltonian).
http://the-aha-society.com/index.php/publications/articles/87-aha-society-articles/179-poetry-of-alexander-hamilton
The Soul ascending into Bliss, In humble imitation of
Popes Dying Christian to his Soul
AH! whither, whither, am I flown,
A wandering guest in worlds unknown?
What is that I see and hear?
What heav'nly music fills mine ear?
Etherial glories shine around;
More than Arabias sweets abound.
Hark! hark! a voice from yonder sky,
Methinks I hear my Saviour cry,
Come gentle spirit come away,
Come to thy Lord without delay;
For thee the gates of bliss unbar'd
Thy constant virtue to reward.
I come oh Lord! I mount, I fly,
On rapid wings I cleave the sky;
Stretch out thine arm and aid my flight;
For oh! I long to gain that height,
Where all celestial beings sing
Eternal praises to their King.
O Lamb of God! thrice gracious Lord
Now, now I feel how true thy word;
Translated to this happy place,
This blessed vision of thy face;
My soul shall all thy steps attend
In songs of triumph without end.
"O Death! where is thy sting?"
Was he *hoping* for a sting? Or gloating that there doesn't seem to be one?
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-55.htm

I believe that Pope was just quoting 1 Corinthians 15:55, and since he was himself a believing Roman Catholic, I'd imagine he was just expressing his joy that, because of Jesus' atonement for all mankind's sins, he had no reason to fear death.
Michael Pendragon
2016-02-20 03:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Maybe instead of labeling those poets as Metaphysical or not, we should label them as Liberal (Jeffersonian) vs. Conservative (Hamiltonian).
http://the-aha-society.com/index.php/publications/articles/87-aha-society-articles/179-poetry-of-alexander-hamilton
The Soul ascending into Bliss, In humble imitation of
Popes Dying Christian to his Soul
AH! whither, whither, am I flown,
A wandering guest in worlds unknown?
What is that I see and hear?
What heav'nly music fills mine ear?
Etherial glories shine around;
More than Arabias sweets abound.
Hark! hark! a voice from yonder sky,
Methinks I hear my Saviour cry,
Come gentle spirit come away,
Come to thy Lord without delay;
For thee the gates of bliss unbar'd
Thy constant virtue to reward.
I come oh Lord! I mount, I fly,
On rapid wings I cleave the sky;
Stretch out thine arm and aid my flight;
For oh! I long to gain that height,
Where all celestial beings sing
Eternal praises to their King.
O Lamb of God! thrice gracious Lord
Now, now I feel how true thy word;
Translated to this happy place,
This blessed vision of thy face;
My soul shall all thy steps attend
In songs of triumph without end.
Well, based on these two, I'd label Hamilton the better poet.
And I'd disagree. Pope's poem (see below) has a far more intricate (and pleasing) meter than Hamilton's. Pope also entertains deeper concepts ("let me languish into life"), whereas Hamilton falls into sugarplum nonsense ("Etherial glories shine around;/More than Arabias sweets abound"). And, lastly, Pope's poem expresses a *will to die* whereas Hamilton addresses his already deceased soul on its supposed ascent. Pope's stance is far more mature, even cutting edge, than Hamilton's which reads dangerously close to a send-up of religious poetry in general.

The Dying Christian to his Soul
A. Pope

VITAL spark of heav'nly flame!
Quit, O quit this mortal frame:
Trembling, hoping, ling'ring, flying,
O the pain, the bliss of dying!
Cease, fond Nature, cease thy strife,
And let me languish into life.

Hark! they whisper; angels say,
Sister Spirit, come away!
What is this absorbs me quite?
Steals my senses, shuts my sight,
Drowns my spirits, draws my breath?
Tell me, my soul, can this be death?

The world recedes; it disappears!
Heav'n opens on my eyes! my ears
With sounds seraphic ring!
Lend, lend your wings! I mount! I fly!
O Grave! where is thy victory?
O Death! where is thy sting?
Post by Will Dockery
"O Death! where is thy sting?"
Was he *hoping* for a sting? Or gloating that there doesn't seem to be one?
Both. He's longing for death *and* gloating that death is not to be feared as it is merely the passage into eternal life.
Post by Will Dockery
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-55.htm
I believe that Pope was just quoting 1 Corinthians 15:55, and since he was himself a believing Roman Catholic, I'd imagine he was just expressing his joy that, because of Jesus' atonement for all mankind's sins, he had no reason to fear death.
Definitely.
George Dance
2016-02-20 20:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Maybe instead of labeling those poets as Metaphysical or not, we should label them as Liberal (Jeffersonian) vs. Conservative (Hamiltonian).
http://the-aha-society.com/index.php/publications/articles/87-aha-society-articles/179-poetry-of-alexander-hamilton
The Soul ascending into Bliss, In humble imitation of
Popes Dying Christian to his Soul
AH! whither, whither, am I flown,
A wandering guest in worlds unknown?
What is that I see and hear?
What heav'nly music fills mine ear?
Etherial glories shine around;
More than Arabias sweets abound.
Hark! hark! a voice from yonder sky,
Methinks I hear my Saviour cry,
Come gentle spirit come away,
Come to thy Lord without delay;
For thee the gates of bliss unbar'd
Thy constant virtue to reward.
I come oh Lord! I mount, I fly,
On rapid wings I cleave the sky;
Stretch out thine arm and aid my flight;
For oh! I long to gain that height,
Where all celestial beings sing
Eternal praises to their King.
O Lamb of God! thrice gracious Lord
Now, now I feel how true thy word;
Translated to this happy place,
This blessed vision of thy face;
My soul shall all thy steps attend
In songs of triumph without end.
Well, based on these two, I'd label Hamilton the better poet.
I agree with Michael that it stays too much inside the convention of Christian poetry for those days (though I'd add, because that convention has been forgotten, it can sound fresh and new nowadays).

The big question it posed for me was: Do I add Hamilton to the wiki? He's not really a "poet", since he seems to have just dabbled in it; but it's a revelation to know he wrote poetry at all. So what I've done is just copy in the Wikipedia article, adding the above link and another link to the AHA Society; that's a start, I guess.
Post by Will Dockery
"O Death! where is thy sting?"
Was he *hoping* for a sting? Or gloating that there doesn't seem to be one?
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-55.htm
I believe that Pope was just quoting 1 Corinthians 15:55, and since he was himself a believing Roman Catholic, I'd imagine he was just expressing his joy that, because of Jesus' atonement for all mankind's sins, he had no reason to fear death.
Will Dockery
2016-02-20 22:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Maybe instead of labeling those poets as Metaphysical or not, we should label them as Liberal (Jeffersonian) vs. Conservative (Hamiltonian).
http://the-aha-society.com/index.php/publications/articles/87-aha-society-articles/179-poetry-of-alexander-hamilton
The Soul ascending into Bliss, In humble imitation of
Popes Dying Christian to his Soul
AH! whither, whither, am I flown,
A wandering guest in worlds unknown?
What is that I see and hear?
What heav'nly music fills mine ear?
Etherial glories shine around;
More than Arabias sweets abound.
Hark! hark! a voice from yonder sky,
Methinks I hear my Saviour cry,
Come gentle spirit come away,
Come to thy Lord without delay;
For thee the gates of bliss unbar'd
Thy constant virtue to reward.
I come oh Lord! I mount, I fly,
On rapid wings I cleave the sky;
Stretch out thine arm and aid my flight;
For oh! I long to gain that height,
Where all celestial beings sing
Eternal praises to their King.
O Lamb of God! thrice gracious Lord
Now, now I feel how true thy word;
Translated to this happy place,
This blessed vision of thy face;
My soul shall all thy steps attend
In songs of triumph without end.
Well, based on these two, I'd label Hamilton the better poet.
I agree with Michael that it stays too much inside the convention of Christian poetry for those days (though I'd add, because that convention has been forgotten, it can sound fresh and new nowadays).
The big question it posed for me was: Do I add Hamilton to the wiki? He's not really a "poet", since he seems to have just dabbled in it; but it's a revelation to know he wrote poetry at all. So what I've done is just copy in the Wikipedia article, adding the above link and another link to the AHA Society; that's a start, I guess.
By my liver and lights, I would include Alexander Hamilton, if it were my call.

:)
Post by George Dance
Post by Will Dockery
"O Death! where is thy sting?"
Was he *hoping* for a sting? Or gloating that there doesn't seem to be one?
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-55.htm
I believe that Pope was just quoting 1 Corinthians 15:55, and since he was himself a believing Roman Catholic, I'd imagine he was just expressing his joy that, because of Jesus' atonement for all mankind's sins, he had no reason to fear death.
Stephan Pickering
2016-02-21 05:09:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, October 18, 1998 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, David J. wrote:

Shalom & Erev tov...before you accept anything T.S. Eliot iterated, I would suggest you study carefully:

Bryan Cheyette, 2003. Neither excuse nor accuse: T.S. Eliot's semitic discourse. Modernism/Modernity 10(3):431-437

Benjamin Ivry, 2011. T.S. Eliot' on-again, off-again anti-semitism. The Jewish Daily Forward 16 September

Anthony Julius, 1995. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form (Cambridge University Press), 1-308

Anthony Julius, 2003. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form: new edition with a preface & response to the critics (Thames & Hudson), 1-342

NB. Reb Julius eradicates the argument that Eliot was not a Yehu'di hater. In my monograph-in-progress on Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan''s poetics, I devote one paragraph on Eliot...

Anthony Julius, 2010. Trials of the diaspora: a history of anti-semitism in English (Oxford University Press), 1-811

Michiko Kakutani, 1996. Was Eliot anti-semitic? An author says he was. The New York Times 4 June

Louis Menand, 1996. Eliot and the Jews. The New York Review of Books 43(10)

Bernard Weintraub, 1988. Anti-semitism issue slows British fun for Eliot. The New York Times 9 August

There are other references, but these are the most salient.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג

THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Stephan Pickering
2016-02-21 05:16:11 UTC
Permalink
A recent, excellent repudiation of Eliot's bigotry is:

Paul Dean, 2007. Academimic. The New Criterion 25(8)



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג

THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Stephan Pickering
2016-02-21 06:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Shalom & Erev tov...I would be remiss without citing one of my early intellectual mentors:

Hyam Maccoby, 1969. A study of the 'jew' in Gerontion. Jewish Quarterly 17(2):19-43

Hyam Maccoby, 1973. The antisemitism of T.S. Eliot. Midstream 19(5):68-79

Hyam Maccoby, 1988. T.S. Eliot's antisemitism was ingrained and reprehensible. The Independent [London] 20 August:11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג

THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
George Dance
2016-02-22 06:22:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Pickering
Hyam Maccoby, 1969. A study of the 'jew' in Gerontion. Jewish Quarterly 17(2):19-43
Now, that's just weird. Eliot wrote 3 lines about the 'jew' in Gerontion: how can one write a 27 page article about those 3 lines?
Post by Stephan Pickering
Hyam Maccoby, 1973. The antisemitism of T.S. Eliot. Midstream 19(5):68-79
Hyam Maccoby, 1988. T.S. Eliot's antisemitism was ingrained and reprehensible. The Independent [London] 20 August:11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Will Dockery
2016-02-22 07:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Dance
Post by Stephan Pickering
Hyam Maccoby, 1969. A study of the 'jew' in Gerontion. Jewish Quarterly 17(2):19-43
Now, that's just weird. Eliot wrote 3 lines about the 'jew' in Gerontion: how can one write a 27 page article about those 3 lines?
Post by Stephan Pickering
Hyam Maccoby, 1973. The antisemitism of T.S. Eliot. Midstream 19(5):68-79
Hyam Maccoby, 1988. T.S. Eliot's antisemitism was ingrained and reprehensible. The Independent [London] 20 August:11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
I confess I'm not as well-read on T.S. Eliot as I probably should be, George...But I'll definitely be looking up that poem this evening, time permitting.
Peter J Ross
2016-02-26 13:08:36 UTC
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sun, 21 Feb 2016 23:13:16 -0800 (PST),
Post by Will Dockery
I confess I'm not as well-read on T.S. Eliot as I probably should
be, George...But I'll definitely be looking up that poem this
evening, time permitting.
Don't waste your time, Dreckwit. I've just checked, and nobody's made
a comic-book version of Eliot.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Peter J Ross
2016-02-26 13:10:23 UTC
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sun, 21 Feb 2016 22:22:28 -0800 (PST),
Post by George Dance
Now, that's just weird. Eliot wrote 3 lines about the 'jew' in
Gerontion: how can one write a 27 page article about those 3 lines?
Does this mean that you won't be copying the article to your kooksite
and pretending that you wrote it, Dunce?
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2016-02-21 08:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Pickering
Bryan Cheyette, 2003. Neither excuse nor accuse: T.S. Eliot's semitic discourse. Modernism/Modernity 10(3):431-437
Benjamin Ivry, 2011. T.S. Eliot' on-again, off-again anti-semitism. The Jewish Daily Forward 16 September
Anthony Julius, 1995. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form (Cambridge University Press), 1-308
Anthony Julius, 2003. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form: new edition with a preface & response to the critics (Thames & Hudson), 1-342
NB. Reb Julius eradicates the argument that Eliot was not a Yehu'di hater. In my monograph-in-progress on Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan''s poetics, I devote one paragraph on Eliot...
Anthony Julius, 2010. Trials of the diaspora: a history of anti-semitism in English (Oxford University Press), 1-811
Michiko Kakutani, 1996. Was Eliot anti-semitic? An author says he was. The New York Times 4 June
Louis Menand, 1996. Eliot and the Jews. The New York Review of Books 43(10)
Bernard Weintraub, 1988. Anti-semitism issue slows British fun for Eliot. The New York Times 9 August
There are other references, but these are the most salient.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
I was more aware of Ezra Pound's fascist leanings than Eliot's, Stephan, but definitely will explore that... a shame that he had to mar his poetic legacy with racism of this sort.
George Dance
2016-02-22 06:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephan Pickering
Bryan Cheyette, 2003. Neither excuse nor accuse: T.S. Eliot's semitic discourse. Modernism/Modernity 10(3):431-437
Benjamin Ivry, 2011. T.S. Eliot' on-again, off-again anti-semitism. The Jewish Daily Forward 16 September
Anthony Julius, 1995. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form (Cambridge University Press), 1-308
Anthony Julius, 2003. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form: new edition with a preface & response to the critics (Thames & Hudson), 1-342
NB. Reb Julius eradicates the argument that Eliot was not a Yehu'di hater. In my monograph-in-progress on Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan''s poetics, I devote one paragraph on Eliot...
Anthony Julius, 2010. Trials of the diaspora: a history of anti-semitism in English (Oxford University Press), 1-811
Michiko Kakutani, 1996. Was Eliot anti-semitic? An author says he was. The New York Times 4 June
Louis Menand, 1996. Eliot and the Jews. The New York Review of Books 43(10)
Bernard Weintraub, 1988. Anti-semitism issue slows British fun for Eliot. The New York Times 9 August
There are other references, but these are the most salient.
Not one of them has anything to do with metaphysical poetry. Saying "Eliot's poetry or poetics is wrong because he was antisemitic" is like saying "Auden's poetry was bad because he was a pedophile."
Post by Stephan Pickering
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Will Dockery
2016-02-22 16:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Dance
Post by Stephan Pickering
Bryan Cheyette, 2003. Neither excuse nor accuse: T.S. Eliot's semitic discourse. Modernism/Modernity 10(3):431-437
Benjamin Ivry, 2011. T.S. Eliot' on-again, off-again anti-semitism. The Jewish Daily Forward 16 September
Anthony Julius, 1995. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form (Cambridge University Press), 1-308
Anthony Julius, 2003. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form: new edition with a preface & response to the critics (Thames & Hudson), 1-342
NB. Reb Julius eradicates the argument that Eliot was not a Yehu'di hater. In my monograph-in-progress on Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan''s poetics, I devote one paragraph on Eliot...
Anthony Julius, 2010. Trials of the diaspora: a history of anti-semitism in English (Oxford University Press), 1-811
Michiko Kakutani, 1996. Was Eliot anti-semitic? An author says he was. The New York Times 4 June
Louis Menand, 1996. Eliot and the Jews. The New York Review of Books 43(10)
Bernard Weintraub, 1988. Anti-semitism issue slows British fun for Eliot. The New York Times 9 August
There are other references, but these are the most salient.
Not one of them has anything to do with metaphysical poetry. Saying "Eliot's poetry or poetics is wrong because he was antisemitic" is like saying "Auden's poetry was bad because he was a pedophile."
Post by Stephan Pickering
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
This is a tricky subject and question, though, George...

For example, will the world ever again be able to look at Bill Cosby as simply a "family oriented" comedian and pudding salesman after these current events?

Will we ever be able to look at O.J. Simpson as just a great football hero ever again?

Being a child molester and/or a Nazi is a definite black mark and casts a disgusting tint on the artist found guilty of such sinister shenanigans.

Just my opinion.
Michael Pendragon
2016-02-22 19:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Stephan Pickering
Bryan Cheyette, 2003. Neither excuse nor accuse: T.S. Eliot's semitic discourse. Modernism/Modernity 10(3):431-437
Benjamin Ivry, 2011. T.S. Eliot' on-again, off-again anti-semitism. The Jewish Daily Forward 16 September
Anthony Julius, 1995. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form (Cambridge University Press), 1-308
Anthony Julius, 2003. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form: new edition with a preface & response to the critics (Thames & Hudson), 1-342
NB. Reb Julius eradicates the argument that Eliot was not a Yehu'di hater. In my monograph-in-progress on Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan''s poetics, I devote one paragraph on Eliot...
Anthony Julius, 2010. Trials of the diaspora: a history of anti-semitism in English (Oxford University Press), 1-811
Michiko Kakutani, 1996. Was Eliot anti-semitic? An author says he was. The New York Times 4 June
Louis Menand, 1996. Eliot and the Jews. The New York Review of Books 43(10)
Bernard Weintraub, 1988. Anti-semitism issue slows British fun for Eliot. The New York Times 9 August
There are other references, but these are the most salient.
Not one of them has anything to do with metaphysical poetry. Saying "Eliot's poetry or poetics is wrong because he was antisemitic" is like saying "Auden's poetry was bad because he was a pedophile."
Post by Stephan Pickering
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
This is a tricky subject and question, though, George...
For example, will the world ever again be able to look at Bill Cosby as simply a "family oriented" comedian and pudding salesman after these current events?
Will we ever be able to look at O.J. Simpson as just a great football hero ever again?
Being a child molester and/or a Nazi is a definite black mark and casts a disgusting tint on the artist found guilty of such sinister shenanigans.
Just my opinion.
I believe that a great poem transcends its author. The poem is a work of art, separate from its creator, and certainly not culpable for the latter's moral or ethical transgressions. It stands alone.

I found "The Wasteland," however, to be a colossal waste of time.
Hieronymous707
2016-02-22 20:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Waste not land and waste not places.
Waste not what will fill the spaces
in between. These sights are sounds
like lightning strikes. Each word redounds.

What you see first is the light
and letter perfect language rite.
The sound that follows booms the word
like nothing you have ever heard.

The sound you hear, and words that follow
lightning, like light, you swallow
hardly noticing the taste.
See no wasted spaces in this place.

So waste not land, nor space, nor time;
for understanding in this rhyme
relates the situation as clearly
one thing we all speak of, dearly.
Will Dockery
2016-02-23 07:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George Dance
Post by Stephan Pickering
Bryan Cheyette, 2003. Neither excuse nor accuse: T.S. Eliot's semitic discourse. Modernism/Modernity 10(3):431-437
Benjamin Ivry, 2011. T.S. Eliot' on-again, off-again anti-semitism. The Jewish Daily Forward 16 September
Anthony Julius, 1995. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form (Cambridge University Press), 1-308
Anthony Julius, 2003. T.S. Eliot, anti-semitism, & literary form: new edition with a preface & response to the critics (Thames & Hudson), 1-342
NB. Reb Julius eradicates the argument that Eliot was not a Yehu'di hater. In my monograph-in-progress on Shabtai Zisel / 'Bob Dylan''s poetics, I devote one paragraph on Eliot...
Anthony Julius, 2010. Trials of the diaspora: a history of anti-semitism in English (Oxford University Press), 1-811
Michiko Kakutani, 1996. Was Eliot anti-semitic? An author says he was. The New York Times 4 June
Louis Menand, 1996. Eliot and the Jews. The New York Review of Books 43(10)
Bernard Weintraub, 1988. Anti-semitism issue slows British fun for Eliot. The New York Times 9 August
There are other references, but these are the most salient.
Not one of them has anything to do with metaphysical poetry. Saying "Eliot's poetry or poetics is wrong because he was antisemitic" is like saying "Auden's poetry was bad because he was a pedophile."
Post by Stephan Pickering
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
This is a tricky subject and question, though, George...
For example, will the world ever again be able to look at Bill Cosby as simply a "family oriented" comedian and pudding salesman after these current events?
Will we ever be able to look at O.J. Simpson as just a great football hero ever again?
Being a child molester and/or a Nazi is a definite black mark and casts a disgusting tint on the artist found guilty of such sinister shenanigans.
Just my opinion.
I believe that a great poem transcends its author. The poem is a work of art, separate from its creator, and certainly not culpable for the latter's moral or ethical transgressions. It stands alone.
I found "The Wasteland," however, to be a colossal waste of time.
Yes, it is like "Do not mistake the speaker in the poem with the writer in the poem" only backwards.

:)
Peter J Ross
2016-02-26 12:54:14 UTC
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:57:25 -0800 (PST),
Post by Michael Pendragon
I found "The Wasteland," however, to be a colossal waste of time.
Perhaps you should have tried /The Waste Land/ instead, illiterate
clown.

If you'd read it, it could have counted as one of the thousand poems
you need to read before attempting to write one yourself.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
General Zod
2019-04-16 04:09:35 UTC
Permalink
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
Please look at my sites at
http://djust.hypermart.net/ and
http://www.netvision.net.il/php/djust/ .
Fabulous....
Will Dockery
2019-04-20 06:23:22 UTC
Permalink
If anyone knows of a URL for T. S. Eliot's essay on the "Metaphysical
Poets", or if anyone has a copy he can send me somehow, please either post
here or e-mail to me.
And don't answer: "Are you too lazy to go to the library?"!
--
Thanks.
David.
Please look at my sites at
http://djust.hypermart.net/ and
http://www.netvision.net.il/php/djust/ .
Fabulous....
------------------------------------------------------

Good find.

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