Discussion:
PPB: Joy-Month / David Andrew Wasson
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George J. Dance
2019-06-29 13:54:58 UTC
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Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson

Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]

https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
NancyGene
2019-06-29 17:18:33 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
What a steaming load of horse manure. "What a gush!" "and from out what golden springs!" Sounds like Zid talking about Will's "poetry" or anatomy.

Dunce, you left out the funniest line in the poem: "Tongues, tongues for my joy, for my joy! more tongues! -" Nelly? Sandy? Clay?
Dental River
2019-06-29 17:29:22 UTC
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Post by NancyGene
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
What a steaming load of horse manure. "What a gush!" "and from out what golden springs!" Sounds like Zid talking about Will's "poetry" or anatomy.
Dunce, you left out the funniest line in the poem: "Tongues, tongues for my joy, for my joy! more tongues! -" Nelly? Sandy? Clay?

NancyGene
2019-06-29 17:45:41 UTC
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Post by Dental River
Post by NancyGene
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
What a steaming load of horse manure. "What a gush!" "and from out what golden springs!" Sounds like Zid talking about Will's "poetry" or anatomy.
Dunce, you left out the funniest line in the poem: "Tongues, tongues for my joy, for my joy! more tongues! -" Nelly? Sandy? Clay?
http://youtu.be/mUxN4gyarEw
Thanks for the link to that lovely forked-tongue waltz, Dental River.
Chafetz Chayim ha'Yehu'di
2019-06-29 17:37:14 UTC
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On Saturday, June 29, 2019 at 10:18:34 AM UTC-7, NaziQueene drools...


Shalom & Boker tov, George...NaziQueene is irrelevant. He is a documented 4th reich racist, a plagiarist, a cyberlibeller.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
לעולם לא אשכח

IN PROGRESS: Shabtai Zisel ben Avraham v'Rachel Riva:
davening in the musematic dark
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-06-29 21:38:19 UTC
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Post by NancyGene
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
What a steaming load of horse manure. "What a gush!" "and from out what golden springs!" Sounds like Zid talking about Will's "poetry" or anatomy.
Dunce, you left out the funniest line in the poem: "Tongues, tongues for my joy, for my joy! more tongues! -" Nelly? Sandy? Clay?
There you go attacking people N.G.

That is why you do not belong on the Facebook group.........
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-07-02 01:10:49 UTC
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Post by NancyGene
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
What a steaming load of horse manure
Your upper lip again...?? ?
Will Dockery
2019-06-29 19:45:52 UTC
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After that obsessive anti poetry rant, it should be clear why N.G. isn't allowed to join the Facebook poetry group.

:)
Michael Pendragon
2019-06-30 06:36:43 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
After that obsessive anti poetry rant, it should be clear why N.G. isn't allowed to join the Facebook poetry group.
It's always been obvious why NancyGene isn't allowed to join FB-AAPC. FB-AAPC is a circle jerk for a group of untalented wannabe artistes.

It's equally obvious that you'd like to turn AAPC into the same.


Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
1. Description of Spring, Henry Howard
2. I can remember, Stephan Pickering
3. Expecting Inspiration, George Sulzbach
I am greatly honored to be among these giants of poetry....
-- George “Lady Bunny” Sulzbach
Will Dockery
2019-06-30 06:56:28 UTC
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No, Nancy G. is not allowed in the Facebook poetry group because it is a malicious stalker troll.
Michael Pendragon
2019-06-30 07:18:20 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
No, Nancy G. is not allowed in the Facebook poetry group because it is a malicious stalker troll.
Which we all know means (in Docspeak) that she refuses to slurp your posts.


Michael Pendragon
"Thanks for the nod on my rod, General Zod.
Watch my rod nod at the sight of your bod.
I'll shoot my wad if you'll call me your God.
So thanks for the nod on my rod, General Zod."
-- Wee Whiny Willie Dockery, quintessential dumb fuck, pissbum (paraphrased)
Will Dockery
2019-06-30 07:24:02 UTC
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No, Nancy G. is a malicious stalker troll, Pendragon.

The proof is archived fact, here on the newsgroup.
Coco DeSockmonkey
2019-06-30 07:30:42 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
No, Nancy G. is a malicious stalker troll, Pendragon.
The proof is archived fact, here on the newsgroup.
I've seen no such proof, Whiner.


Michael Pendragon
“It was done before me and after me, I'm simply adding my version.”
-- Wee Whiny Willie Dockery, quintessential dumb fuck, pissbum
Will Dockery
2019-06-30 08:15:05 UTC
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Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
Post by Will Dockery
No, Nancy G. is a malicious stalker troll, Pendragon.
The proof is archived fact, here on the newsgroup.
I've seen no such proof
Because you don't want to see it, lying troll.

:)
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-06-30 21:40:23 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
Interesting the attacks on such a lovely poem....
Michael Pendragon
2019-06-30 22:42:21 UTC
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Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
Interesting the attacks on such a lovely poem....
I'm a long-time fan of rhymed-metered Victorian era verse, but this poem is an embarrassingly bad piece of twaddle.


Michael Pendragon
“There is no 'fact' of 'statutory rape'. 'Morality' -- like 'gnosticism', 'god', haKodesh Barukh hu, 'mysticism' -- are NOT definable, and for you to keep transposing your stultifying proto-fascism onto others is not accepted by me.”
-- Stephen “Lady Pickles” Pickering
George J. Dance
2019-07-01 01:47:24 UTC
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Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
Interesting the attacks on such a lovely poem....
Just like the attacks on the C.M. Davidson poem, they have little if anything to do with the poetry, and everything to do with the venue.
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-07-01 02:38:33 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
Interesting the attacks on such a lovely poem....
Just like the attacks on the C.M. Davidson poem, they have little if anything to do with the poetry, and everything to do with the venue.
Yes....

The attacks are more on you than on the poems G.D.
George J. Dance
2019-07-01 03:40:44 UTC
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Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
Interesting the attacks on such a lovely poem....
Just like the attacks on the C.M. Davidson poem, they have little if anything to do with the poetry, and everything to do with the venue.
Yes....
The attacks are more on you than on the poems G.D.
The most amusing part is that they're coming from people who've claimed they don't even read the blog!
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-01 03:58:32 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
Interesting the attacks on such a lovely poem....
Just like the attacks on the C.M. Davidson poem, they have little if anything to do with the poetry, and everything to do with the venue.
Yes....
The attacks are more on you than on the poems G.D.
The most amusing part is that they're coming from people who've claimed they don't even read the blog!
https://mypoeticside.com/poets/david-atwood-wasson-poems

https://www.poetrysoup.com/poem/saving_daylight_638838
NancyGene
2019-07-02 13:23:05 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
The most amusing part is that they're coming from people who've claimed they don't even read the blog!
We don't read your blog. The poem you selected is in the public domain so is available elsewhere. You don't have exclusive rights to print the thing.
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-01 03:43:07 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog;
Joy-Month, by David Atwood Wasson
Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!
How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!
What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2019/06/joy-month-david-atwood-wasson_29.html
Interesting the attacks on such a lovely poem....
Just like the attacks on the C.M. Davidson poem, they have little if anything to do with the poetry, and everything to do with the venue.
OMFG! The C.M. Davidson poem was worthless. The D.A. Wasson poem goes beyond worthless to being so bad, it's almost funny. Even Will said he considered it campy.

I've praised several poems you'd blogged in the past, and I stand by those posts today. I don't know whether you're running out of material, or whether your ability to distinguish between quality verses and twaddle is purely a hit-and-miss deal, but these last two poems have been awful.

I haven't reviewed the Wasson poem yet, so here goes:

Joy-Month

[What month is "Joy-Month"? Probably April or May as the buttercups are in bloom. Neither month is specified in the poem, so the reader will forever be in doubt as to which month "Joy-Month" actually is. Yes, I know, it's intentional ambiguity.]

Oh, hark to the brown thrush! hear how he sings!

[Oh, hark to the brown thrush! This, the opening line of the poem reads like it had been written for a Mel Brooks movie.]

How he pours the dear pain of his gladness!

[This is the best line in the poem... if one ignores the fact that it doesn't say where he pours it. I know... the poet meant to say "pours out the pain," but sacrificed the sense of the line for the meter. Of course he could have cut the laughably affected "dear" from the line, which would have made room for the necessary "out," but as we shall see, affectation is D.A. Wasson's forte.]

What a gush! and from out what golden springs!
What a rage of how sweet madness!

[Can anyone read these lines aloud with a straight face? Can they read "What a gush!" without breaking into laughter? And then there's "What rage of how sweet madness!" At this point, anyone reading it aloud would have abandoned a straight reading and adopted an over-the-top, snooty, and decidedly fruity, pretentious tone.]

And golden the buttercup blooms by the way,

[As opposed to the violet variety?]

A song of the joyous ground;

[There are metaphors... and then there are silly metaphors. Buttercups as a song is a metaphor. Buttercups as a song of the joyous ground, is silly.]

While the melody rained from yonder spray
Is a blossom in fields of sound.

[Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any variety of buttercup that's over one inch tall? Since rain falls in a downward motion, it's difficult to imagine a melody raining down from a buttercup. But the improbability of the melody raining from buttercups is immediately forgotten with the pretentious introduction of "yonder spray." It's a pity about the poet's ineptitude, as the concept of a flower representing a blossom of music in a field of sound is a promising one.]

How glisten the eyes of the happy leaves!

[Okay... who drew the smiley faces on the leaves?]

How whispers each blade, "I am blest!"

[Nothing like piety among the meadowgrass! Note how Mr. Wasson's copious use of quotation marks has rubbed off on his humble reviewer!]

Rosy Heaven his lips to flowered earth gives,
With the costliest bliss of his breast.

[I'm not sure why Mr. Heaven's breast would be costly -- unless he's one of Will's "Truck Stop" women.]

Pour, pour of the wine of thy heart, O Nature!
By cups of field and of sky,

[Methinks Mr. Wasson has recently read "The Rubaiyat." Unfortunately, he's no Omar Khayyam!]

By the brimming soul of every creature! -
Joy-mad, dear Mother, am I.

[Drunkenness or madness would explain his having written this overripe tripe!]

Tongues, tongues for my joy, for my joy! more tongues! -

[ROTFLMAO! And don't you dare pretend for one second that you aren't as well!]

Oh, thanks to the thrush on the tree,
To the sky, and to all earth's blooms and songs!
They utter the heart in me.

[What a pity that Mr. Wasson didn't allow the birds and the trees to sing his Joy-Madness for him!]
Will Dockery
2019-06-30 22:44:34 UTC
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It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.

:)
George J. Dance
2019-07-01 04:14:38 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-07-01 08:17:18 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
George J. Dance
2019-07-01 16:57:58 UTC
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Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it doesn't go onto the blog :)
Will Dockery
2019-07-01 17:26:40 UTC
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Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it doesn't go onto the blog :)
I enjoyed it also, but do see some easy openings for lampoon by modern readers.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-01 18:24:23 UTC
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In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-01 21:28:52 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Peter J Ross
2019-07-01 21:35:05 UTC
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In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie (when you know I'm telling the truth) so
much, drunkard?
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-02 18:39:09 UTC
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Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-02 20:01:24 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.

Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying smear" has been made.
Will Dockery
2019-07-02 21:07:25 UTC
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Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him
Or PJR claims that a poem was stolen... in other word, lying.
Rex Hester Jr
2019-07-02 23:29:39 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him
Or PJR claims that a poem was stolen... in other word, lying.
Yes I am sure G.D. will correct this and set the record straight.....
George J. Dance
2019-07-03 01:08:52 UTC
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Post by Rex Hester Jr
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him
Or PJR claims that a poem was stolen... in other word, lying.
Yes I am sure G.D. will correct this and set the record straight.....
Once, anyway. I hope that will be enough for once.
PJ Ross claims that he wrote this book of mine -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/http://www.lulu.com/shop/george-j-dance/penny-or-pennys-hat/paperback/product-21454470.html
- which can also be read on the web for free:
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2009_12_01_archive.html

Either he's lying, or he honestly thinks he wrote it. If he honestly thinks he wrote it, he's crazy; so either he's lying or he's crazy.

But if he honestly thinks he wrote it, he thinks he owns the copyright; so one would expect him to think (and act as if) he can have Blogspot take it down, and lulu stop selling it. And he hasn't done either, in almost a decade of whining about it. From which I conclude that he doesn't honestly think he wrote it; and, therefore, that he is lying in that case.
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 01:50:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
George J. Dance
2019-07-03 17:51:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 18:12:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
Pendragon claims he can't even see your site.
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 18:30:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
Pendragon claims he can't even see your site.
Here's the message I always get:

This site can’t be reached gdancesbetty.blogspot.com’s server IP address could not be found.
Try running Windows Network Diagnostics.
DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 19:00:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:30:31 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
Pendragon claims he can't even see your site.
This site can’t be reached gdancesbetty.blogspot.com’s server IP address could not be found.
Try running Windows Network Diagnostics.
DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN
Or instead of running Windows Network Diagnostics you could try
running a grown-up operating system, such as Linux or BSD.

(After learning German, reading /Don Juan/ and listening to all
Chopin's works, of course.)
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 19:11:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
Pendragon claims he can't even see your site.
This site can’t be reached gdancesbetty.blogspot.com’s server IP address could not be found.
Try running Windows Network Diagnostics.
DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN
Works fine down this way.
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 19:42:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:30:31 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
Pendragon claims he can't even see your site.
This site can’t be reached gdancesbetty.blogspot.com’s server IP address could not be found.
Try running Windows Network Diagnostics.
DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN
Or instead of running Windows Network Diagnostics you could try
running a grown-up operating system, such as Linux or BSD.
(After learning German, reading /Don Juan/ and listening to all
Chopin's works, of course.)
That's quite alright, Peter, as I have no desire to visit Dunce's blaaaaaargh.
George J. Dance
2019-07-04 22:16:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
Pendragon claims he can't even see your site.
That's strange; he had no more trouble reading it, back when he wanted to be in the "Dunce Gang," than I or anyone else has - none whatever.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 18:30:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:51:43 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, is this the Betty and her hat controversy?
Sure is; which is probably why neither he nor Pig Pen ever give the poem's name.
The title of the text you stole from me was "Batty's Hat". Although it
was favourably received in AAPC, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a
poem.

In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty" and interpolated some randomly-generated spew, but
otherwise left every word, every line break and every punctuation mark
as I'd typed them.

Under the threat of prosecution, and aware of how your hero Tommy
Tosser had killed himself when faced with the prospect of having to
pay $100,000 damages for a similar offence against another AAPC
poster, you made a few changes, which turned the plagiarised text into
a marginally acceptable imitation rather than a completely
unacceptable copy. At a later date, you announced that you were
changing "Betty" to "Penny" because you were still scared of being
prosecuted, even though I hadn't threatened you.

Every time you spam a link to your "Penny's Plagiarised Pages" site,
I'm reminded of how completely I own your saggy old arse.

Meanwhile, Batty sits at this moment a few inches from my keyboard,
still wearing his famous red hat and still laughing at you.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 18:58:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.

:)
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 21:02:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.
Please continue to know nothing about copyright, Dreckery.

Sooner or later, somebody will sue you, and everybody will enjoy the
spectacle.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-07-03 21:05:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.
Please continue to know nothing about copyright
Yet you are the one defending the thief Mike Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
Peter J Ross
2019-07-04 20:44:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.
Please continue to know nothing about copyright
Yet you are the one defending the thief Mike Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
Defame much, Plod?
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-04 20:57:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT),
Yet you are the one defending the thief Michael Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
Defame much
Defend thievery much, Peter?
Cujo DeSockpuppet
2019-07-04 21:34:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT),
Yet you are the one defending the thief Michael Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
Defame much
Defend thievery much, Peter?
Project much, douchebag?
--
Cujo - The Official Overseer of Kooks and Trolls in dfw.*,
alt.paranormal, alt.astrology and alt.astrology.metapsych. Supreme Holy
Overlord of alt.fucknozzles. Winner of the 8/2000, 2/2003 & 4/2007 HL&S
award. July 2005 Hammer of Thor. Winning Trainer - Barbara Woodhouse
Memorial Dog Whistle - 12/2005 & 4/2008. COOSN-266-06-01895.
"The Google archives; for 7 years and running--for all to see for as long
as the Internet shall live--evidences that I am the victor, and you
are the failures." - Edmo, keeping a record of his failures.
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
Will Dockery
2019-07-04 21:38:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT),
Yet you are the one defending the thief Michael Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
<snip>
Post by Peter J Ross
Project much
Not at all in this case, Cujo... Rex has his facts correct.

:)
Peter J Ross
2019-07-04 22:25:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:57:15 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT),
Yet you are the one defending the thief Michael Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
Defame much
Defend thievery much, Peter?
No, never, thief.

That's why I defend the victims of your thievery (such as God, alias
Michael Cook) against your lies.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-04 22:44:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:57:15 -0700 (PDT),
Yet you are the one defending the thief Michael Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
<snip>
Post by Peter J Ross
I defend the
thievery (such as
Michael Cook
--
PJR :-)
τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Yes, you've been defending Michael Cook's thievery for about 17 years now, Peter.

:)
Peter J Ross
2019-07-04 22:47:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 4 Jul 2019 15:44:19 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:57:15 -0700 (PDT),
Yet you are the one defending the thief Michael Cook who stole Karma Bombs....
<snip>
Post by Peter J Ross
I defend the
thievery (such as
Michael Cook
Yes, you've<SNIP>
Post-edit dozens of times a day much, plagiarist?
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-04 23:43:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.
know nothing about copyright
You do seem to know surprisingly little, yes.

George J. Dance
2019-07-03 22:25:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.
"They can't mean it, can they? Can anyone who accuses a failed (and
therefore honest) politician of 'stealing' expect to be believed, that
is, taken seriously, that is, taken literally?"
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-07-04 02:13:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.
"They can't mean it, can they? Can anyone who accuses a failed (and
therefore honest) politician of 'stealing' expect to be believed, that
is, taken seriously, that is, taken literally?"
All this is amazing....

Before my time....
George J. Dance
2019-07-04 23:13:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In the version you offered for sale as your own work, you changed
"Batty" to "Betty"
It was satire, transformative usage... in other words fair use.
"They can't mean it, can they? Can anyone who accuses a failed (and
therefore honest) politician of 'stealing' expect to be believed, that
is, taken seriously, that is, taken literally?"
All this is amazing....
Before my time....
Well, you didn't miss much. PJ goes on about it every year. I used to try to debunk him, but then he'd just snip everything, drop the subject, and start over at a later date.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 15:59:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 2 Jul 2019 18:08:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him
Or PJR claims that a poem was stolen... in other word, lying.
Yes I am sure G.D. will correct this and set the record straight.....
Once, anyway. I hope that will be enough for once.
PJ Ross claims that he wrote this book of mine -
http://<SPAM>
https://<SPAM>
Either he's lying, or he honestly thinks he wrote it. If he honestly
thinks he wrote it, he's crazy; so either he's lying or he's crazy.
But if he honestly thinks he wrote it, he thinks he owns the
copyright; so one would expect him to think (and act as if) he can
have Blogspot take it down, and lulu stop selling it. And he hasn't
done either, in almost a decade of whining about it. From which I
conclude that he doesn't honestly think he wrote it; and, therefore,
that he is lying in that case.
What a pathetic kook you are, Dunce!

As you know, the text you plagiarised from me was removed by you from
your kooksite after I threatened you with prosecution.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
George J. Dance
2019-07-04 22:11:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 2 Jul 2019 18:08:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr
Post by Will Dockery
Or PJR claims that a poem was stolen... in other word, lying.
Yes I am sure G.D. will correct this and set the record straight.....
Once, anyway. I hope that will be enough for once.
PJ Ross claims that he wrote this book of mine -
http://<SPAM>
https://<SPAM>
Either he's lying, or he honestly thinks he wrote it. If he honestly
thinks he wrote it, he's crazy; so either he's lying or he's crazy.
But if he honestly thinks he wrote it, he thinks he owns the
copyright; so one would expect him to think (and act as if) he can
have Blogspot take it down, and lulu stop selling it. And he hasn't
done either, in almost a decade of whining about it. From which I
conclude that he doesn't honestly think he wrote it; and, therefore,
that he is lying in that case.
What a pathetic kook you are, Dunce!
As you know, the text you plagiarised from me was removed by you from
your kooksite after I threatened you with prosecution.
Well, no: no one can "know" something that isn't true; and this new story of yours, that I removed some text that was never on my blog in the first place, isn't true at all.
George J. Dance
2019-07-03 00:56:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
(If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by PJ?
Post by Michael Pendragon
Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying smear" has been made.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by you, Pig Pen?
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 02:58:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
(If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by PJ?
Post by Michael Pendragon
Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying smear" has been made.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by you, Pig Pen?
I couldn't begin to answer either question, as I don't read your blog.
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 04:08:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by George J. Dance
(If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by PJ?
Post by Michael Pendragon
Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying smear" has been made.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by you, Pig Pen?
Pendragon won't be able to answer, since it is all in his imagination.

:)
Coco DeSockmonkey
2019-07-03 04:12:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by George J. Dance
(If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by PJ?
Post by Michael Pendragon
Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying smear" has been made.
Oh? Which of my poems on my blog "appears" to you to have been written by you, Pig Pen?
Pendragon won't be able to answer, since it is all in his imagination.
I've already answered, you jackass.

I should hope that none of my poems appear in Dunce's blog.
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 04:18:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
I should hope that none of my poems appear
Rather than just hope and whine, why not have a look?

:)
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-07-03 05:38:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
I should hope that none of my poems appear
Rather than just hope and whine, why not have a look?
:)
Because Pendragon is a fake and just wants to make anything up that he thinks might cause a disturbance....
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 11:51:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
I should hope that none of my poems appear
Rather than just hope and whine, why not have a look?
Dunce's blog is blocked by my computer. Apparently, it's either been deemed unsafe or offensive.


Michael Pendragon
"His trash will be composted."
-- Stephen “Lady Pickles” Pickering
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 16:14:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 04:51:22 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
I should hope that none of my poems appear
Rather than just hope and whine, why not have a look?
Dunce's blog is blocked by my computer. Apparently, it's either
been deemed unsafe or offensive.
I've just had a look, for the first time in many years.

Amusingly, it's marked as safe by "Google Trust Services", which will
impress people who are deluded enough to trust Google Inc.

He's still desperately advertising plagiarised "poems by Saint-Denys
Garneau, translated by George J. Dance - on sale now!"

Otherwise, "No comments" is the most noticeable feature of his
blaaaaaargh posts.

Some posts are "tagged" with the word "children", which is worrying,
given Dunce's admiration for NAMBLA.

I also notice that he charmingly indicates his sexuality with an
"LGBT..." rainbow motif in the sidebar. Given the stupdendous bigotry
of his net.friends, he ought to be congratulated on his courage in
coming out.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 17:42:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
I should hope that none of my poems appear
Rather than just hope and whine, why not have a look?
Dance's blog is blocked by my computer. Apparently, it's either been deemed unsafe or offensive.
Dance will find that news interesting, and hopefully can resolve whatever is wrong.
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 18:28:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
I should hope that none of my poems appear
Rather than just hope and whine, why not have a look?
Dance's blog is blocked by my computer. Apparently, it's either been deemed unsafe or offensive.
Dance will find that news interesting, and hopefully can resolve whatever is wrong.
No, he won't.

Why do you lie so much, Will?
George J. Dance
2019-07-04 22:21:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Coco DeSockmonkey
I should hope that none of my poems appear
Rather than just hope and whine, why not have a look?
Dance's blog is blocked by my computer. Apparently, it's either been deemed unsafe or offensive.
Dance will find that news interesting, and hopefully can resolve whatever is wrong.
I'll ask around to see if anyone is experiencing a problem accessing it.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 15:52:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.
Dunce stole from Leonard Cohen first.

To be more precise, he was *caught* stealing from Leonard Cohen first.
It's safe to assume that all the "poems" he'd previously posted as his
own work were stolen too.

After stealing from me, he went on to steal from an unidentified
translator of the works of an obscure French-Canadian poetaster. As
far as I know, he's still trying to sell his book of plagiarised
translations on his kooksite: that's why he spams advertisements for
his kooksite here.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an
editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying
smear" has been made.
Dunce's general sliminess and shiftiness, exhibited in every post he
makes, are sufficient to ensure that nobody will believe his denials.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 16:38:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.
Dunce stole from Leonard Cohen first.
To be more precise, he was *caught* stealing from Leonard Cohen first.
It's safe to assume that all the "poems" he'd previously posted as his
own work were stolen too.
After stealing from me, he went on to steal from an unidentified
translator of the works of an obscure French-Canadian poetaster. As
far as I know, he's still trying to sell his book of plagiarised
translations on his kooksite: that's why he spams advertisements for
his kooksite here.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an
editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying
smear" has been made.
Dunce's general sliminess and shiftiness, exhibited in every post he
makes, are sufficient to ensure that nobody will believe his denials.
He certainly fits the stereotype regarding his beady little eyes.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 17:34:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:38:32 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:01:24 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:57:58 -0700 (PDT),
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the
edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the
last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is
probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it
doesn't go onto the blog :)
If you'd really enjoyed it, you'd have claimed to be its author.
Why do you lie so much, Peter?
Why do you pretend that I lie
Why do you pretend your lying smear is the truth?
It appears that Dunce once stole a poem from him.
Dunce stole from Leonard Cohen first.
To be more precise, he was *caught* stealing from Leonard Cohen first.
It's safe to assume that all the "poems" he'd previously posted as his
own work were stolen too.
After stealing from me, he went on to steal from an unidentified
translator of the works of an obscure French-Canadian poetaster. As
far as I know, he's still trying to sell his book of plagiarised
translations on his kooksite: that's why he spams advertisements for
his kooksite here.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Having had the misfortune to deal with Dunce as an
editor/publisher/blogger, I have reason to believe that no "lying
smear" has been made.
Dunce's general sliminess and shiftiness, exhibited in every post he
makes, are sufficient to ensure that nobody will believe his denials.
He certainly fits the stereotype regarding his beady little eyes.
If I hadn't seen a photograph (in which Dunce wears the sunglasses of
a South American dictator), I'd have assumed that his eyes were on
retractable stalks.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Rex Hunter Jr.
2019-07-01 23:36:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
I found it to be a quite enjoyable read....
Needless to say, so did I. (If I don't enjoy reading a poem, it doesn't go onto the blog :)
Exactly.....

If the poem is not enjoyed.... why bother....?? ?
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-01 11:38:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
It's "ecstatic" nature could be a culprit as well! What a gush!

Michael Pendragon
"Memories... pressed between the pages just like fine wine...…........"
-- George "Lady Bunny" Sulzbach
Will Dockery
2019-07-01 16:43:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
It's "ecstatic" nature could be a culprit as well! What a gush!
So, the guy really, really loves the Summertime.

:)
George J. Dance
2019-07-01 16:51:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
It's "ecstatic" nature could be a culprit as well! What a gush!
So, the guy really, really loves the Summertime.
:)
There is a time when the young Year
Goes mad with very ecstasy;
When all the rapture of the world
Is crushed in one wild melody.
- Charles Hanson Towne
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-01 18:29:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
It has a certain camp charm, in my opinion.
It's ecstatic, shamanistic verse, that sometimes teeters on the edge of madness. It could have been written by many poets in the last 50 years, except that it's in rhyme and meter - which is probably the source of the campiness.
It's "ecstatic" nature could be a culprit as well! What a gush!
So, the guy really, really loves the Summertime.
:)
There is a time when the young Year
Goes mad with very ecstasy;
When all the rapture of the world
Is crushed in one wild melody.
- Charles Hanson Towne
It's a step up, but still an amateurish piece.

There is a time when the young Year

["Young year" doesn't exactly break the meter... however, it bends it about as close to the breaking point as one could hope to go. While this is somewhat more permissible in the body of a poem, it's a red flag for experienced readers when it appears in the opening line.]


Goes mad with very ecstasy;

[Anyone who throws in "very" as filler in order to pad a line out to the desired number of feet is an unmitigated dunce.]

When all the rapture of the world
Is crushed in one wild melody.

[A very good passage that can almost redeem the poem.]

It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,

[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are familiar with?]

With magic pipe and madrigal,

[An excellent line.]

And sings her happy heart away.

[Weak and clichéd.]

The bloom and wonder of the Spring
Are vocal on her golden tongue;

[Yeech!]

The soul of Music comes to earth,

[A good idea, if expressed in a rather cornball manner.]

And life, and love, and joy are young.

[Youth seems a little superficial as far as the spiritual qualities of Spring would go.]

Join, O my heart, in this wild song;
The jocund April sets you free.

[A tad pretentious.]

Drink the old wine of her new days —

[I'm not sure why Spring's wine would be old... Autumn's or Winter's, certainly... but not Spring's. I know, Dunce -- the author wants to contrast "old wine" with "new days," however that doesn't make the concept any more acceptable.]

Go mad with very ecstasy!

[And here's that goddawful use of "very" again! Were the poet to have dropped it altogether the line would read a thousand times better -- and the missing feet would make it feel more like a close:

Let my heart join in wild song;
Let jocund April set me free.
Drink in the wine of newborn days —
Go mad with ecstasy!
Peter J Ross
2019-07-01 19:06:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?

But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.

(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.

<...>
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-01 19:17:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between "magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-01 20:13:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between
"magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
There's a subtler (and therefore better) use of alliteration in
"silver flute and virelai". It has such a dreamy, enchanted quality
that the superfluous word "silver" is almost justifiable for
contributing an "l", a "v" and an "r", all of which are picked up
later in the line. The liquids and labiodentals are, of course,
completely at odds with the boisterous mood the "poet" is trying to
convey, so it's safe to say that the effect is unintentional.

Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-01 20:22:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between
"magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
There's a subtler (and therefore better) use of alliteration in
"silver flute and virelai". It has such a dreamy, enchanted quality
that the superfluous word "silver" is almost justifiable for
contributing an "l", a "v" and an "r", all of which are picked up
later in the line. The liquids and labiodentals are, of course,
completely at odds with the boisterous mood the "poet" is trying to
convey, so it's safe to say that the effect is unintentional.
I'd missed that, but now that you've pointed it out, I humbly withdraw my "rondelet" suggestion.
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-01 21:14:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between
"magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
There's a subtler (and therefore better) use of alliteration in
"silver flute and virelai". It has such a dreamy, enchanted quality
that the superfluous word "silver" is almost justifiable for
contributing an "l", a "v" and an "r", all of which are picked up
later in the line. The liquids and labiodentals are, of course,
completely at odds with the boisterous mood the "poet" is trying to
convey, so it's safe to say that the effect is unintentional.
I'd missed that, but now that you've pointed it out, I humbly
withdraw my "rondelet" suggestion.
It would, after all, be hard to find a rondelet as beautiful as
Machaut's most famous virelai:



I'm 99% sure that Machaut wrote only the words and the melody, but the
accompaniment doesn't do any harm.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-02 01:07:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between
"magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
There's a subtler (and therefore better) use of alliteration in
"silver flute and virelai". It has such a dreamy, enchanted quality
that the superfluous word "silver" is almost justifiable for
contributing an "l", a "v" and an "r", all of which are picked up
later in the line. The liquids and labiodentals are, of course,
completely at odds with the boisterous mood the "poet" is trying to
convey, so it's safe to say that the effect is unintentional.
I'd missed that, but now that you've pointed it out, I humbly
withdraw my "rondelet" suggestion.
It would, after all, be hard to find a rondelet as beautiful as
http://youtu.be/7ZbQQaMuatE
I'm 99% sure that Machaut wrote only the words and the melody, but the
accompaniment doesn't do any harm.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
I'll try.

The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a caesura, the second with a sustained note.

The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop. The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.

Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of the line.

Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying to convey.

From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.

If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.

As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
Rex Hester Jr.
2019-07-02 08:43:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between
"magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
There's a subtler (and therefore better) use of alliteration in
"silver flute and virelai". It has such a dreamy, enchanted quality
that the superfluous word "silver" is almost justifiable for
contributing an "l", a "v" and an "r", all of which are picked up
later in the line. The liquids and labiodentals are, of course,
completely at odds with the boisterous mood the "poet" is trying to
convey, so it's safe to say that the effect is unintentional.
I'd missed that, but now that you've pointed it out, I humbly
withdraw my "rondelet" suggestion.
It would, after all, be hard to find a rondelet as beautiful as
http://youtu.be/7ZbQQaMuatE
I'm 99% sure that Machaut wrote only the words and the melody, but the
accompaniment doesn't do any harm.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a caesura, the second with a sustained note.
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop. The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of the line.
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying to convey.
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
That was interesting for a change Pen.....
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-02 11:32:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between
"magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
There's a subtler (and therefore better) use of alliteration in
"silver flute and virelai". It has such a dreamy, enchanted quality
that the superfluous word "silver" is almost justifiable for
contributing an "l", a "v" and an "r", all of which are picked up
later in the line. The liquids and labiodentals are, of course,
completely at odds with the boisterous mood the "poet" is trying to
convey, so it's safe to say that the effect is unintentional.
I'd missed that, but now that you've pointed it out, I humbly
withdraw my "rondelet" suggestion.
It would, after all, be hard to find a rondelet as beautiful as
http://youtu.be/7ZbQQaMuatE
I'm 99% sure that Machaut wrote only the words and the melody, but the
accompaniment doesn't do any harm.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a caesura, the second with a sustained note.
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop. The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of the line.
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying to convey.
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
That was interesting for a change Pen.....
Shut up, Todd.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 15:38:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:43:47 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Rex Hester Jr.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 11:29:27 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
It is the hour when April comes
With silver flute and virelay,
[Apart from the annoyance of having to look "virelay" up, it just
doesn't fit into the poem's meter, as "vir-" requires a touch too
much stress. Why not "rondelet" which serves the same purpose, is
better fitted to the meter, and is a word that most readers are
familiar with?]
Why not "roundelay", which has the advantage of being English?
But I see no reason why "rond-" or "round-" should fit the metre
better than "vir-", or why anybody who doesn't know what a virelai is
should be annoyed after finding out.
(But since we write "lai" rather than "lay" when discussing French
verse, we should write "virelai" rather than "virelay".)
Post by Michael Pendragon
With magic pipe and madrigal,
[An excellent line.]
It's a weakened repetition of the line you just disliked. "Pipe" is
vaguer than "flute". "Madrigal" is vaguer than "virelai". As for
"magic" and "silver", they're both useless padding - more distracting
than "very", which has the advantage of being a mere expletive.
I'm a sucker for alliteration. And the similarity between
"magic(al)" and "Madrigal" takes alliteration to a higher level.
There's a subtler (and therefore better) use of alliteration in
"silver flute and virelai". It has such a dreamy, enchanted quality
that the superfluous word "silver" is almost justifiable for
contributing an "l", a "v" and an "r", all of which are picked up
later in the line. The liquids and labiodentals are, of course,
completely at odds with the boisterous mood the "poet" is trying to
convey, so it's safe to say that the effect is unintentional.
I'd missed that, but now that you've pointed it out, I humbly
withdraw my "rondelet" suggestion.
It would, after all, be hard to find a rondelet as beautiful as
http://youtu.be/7ZbQQaMuatE
I'm 99% sure that Machaut wrote only the words and the melody, but the
accompaniment doesn't do any harm.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a caesura, the second with a sustained note.
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop. The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of the line.
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying to convey.
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
That was interesting for a change Pen.....
What did you find interesting about it?

How many of the words that it contained did you understand? About
half? Fewer?
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 15:36:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:07:07 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
Viz: "With magic pipe and madrigal"
Post by Michael Pendragon
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a
caesura, the second with a sustained note.
In other words, it's competent verse. I'll grant you that that's
"something good about it".
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is
practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop.
It's a myth that English has long vowels. The "i" of "pipe" is no
longer than the "a"s of "magic" and "madrigal".

The second "p" isn't "practically silent", but merely unvoiced. If
there were such a word as "pibe", it would take longer to pronounce
than "pipe", because a voiced consonant takes longer to pronounce than
an unvoiced one. ("Pib" would similarly be longer than "pip".)

In fact, the "a" of "madrigal" is longer than the "i" of "pipe",
because the following voiced stop ("d") and liquid ("r") prolong the
vowel. You're quite right in noticing that the voiceless stop "p"
doesn't have the same effect.
Post by Michael Pendragon
The
long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the content of
the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat to it, and
makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.
In fact, the vowels are all "i"s and "a"s. I don't see (or, more
importantly, hear) any significant pattern in the sequence of front
vowels ("i") and back vowels ("a").
Post by Michael Pendragon
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear how
the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of the line.
No, the added variety of a third vowel sound would improve the line.

I prefer "pipe" to "flute" or "horn", but only because it avoids
associations with Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute, Mozart) and Des
Knaben Wunderhorn (The Boy's Magical Horn, Mahler).
Post by Michael Pendragon
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up images
of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful abandon --
which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying to convey.
I don't recall Pan having a "magic pipe", except perhaps in /The Wind
in the Willows/, where the pipe has a soporific effect on its hearers.
Post by Michael Pendragon
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall
symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
You've made a valiant effort, but I still don't agree that the line is
better than the one that preceded it.
Post by Michael Pendragon
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
Anything is a step up from the drivel that Dunce usually spams.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 16:36:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:07:07 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT),
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two heavily
stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely "pipe" is a
rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
Viz: "With magic pipe and madrigal"
Post by Michael Pendragon
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a
caesura, the second with a sustained note.
In other words, it's competent verse. I'll grant you that that's
"something good about it".
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is
practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop.
It's a myth that English has long vowels. The "i" of "pipe" is no
longer than the "a"s of "magic" and "madrigal".
You're comparing apples to oranges. The "i" in "pipe" is long when compared to the short "i" in "pick."
Post by Peter J Ross
The second "p" isn't "practically silent", but merely unvoiced. If
there were such a word as "pibe", it would take longer to pronounce
than "pipe", because a voiced consonant takes longer to pronounce than
an unvoiced one. ("Pib" would similarly be longer than "pip".)
In fact, the "a" of "madrigal" is longer than the "i" of "pipe",
because the following voiced stop ("d") and liquid ("r") prolong the
vowel. You're quite right in noticing that the voiceless stop "p"
doesn't have the same effect.
Post by Michael Pendragon
The
long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the content of
the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat to it, and
makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.
In fact, the vowels are all "i"s and "a"s. I don't see (or, more
importantly, hear) any significant pattern in the sequence of front
vowels ("i") and back vowels ("a").
Post by Michael Pendragon
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear how
the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of the line.
No, the added variety of a third vowel sound would improve the line.
Apparently we have a different ear for the musical properties of various vowels. It's possibly the result of tendency to force a British accent on our perfectly respectable American words.
Post by Peter J Ross
I prefer "pipe" to "flute" or "horn", but only because it avoids
associations with Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute, Mozart) and Des
Knaben Wunderhorn (The Boy's Magical Horn, Mahler).
Post by Michael Pendragon
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up images
of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful abandon --
which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying to convey.
I don't recall Pan having a "magic pipe", except perhaps in /The Wind
in the Willows/, where the pipe has a soporific effect on its hearers.
He has a syrinx (a.k.a., pipes of pan). IIRC the nymph, Syrinx, transformed into a reed to escape Pan's amorous pursuit, and he fashioned his pipes from her metamorphosed body.
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall
symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
You've made a valiant effort, but I still don't agree that the line is
better than the one that preceded it.
Post by Michael Pendragon
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
Anything is a step up from the drivel that Dunce usually spams.
I've been ignoring Dunce's spam post for quite some time. When I was still reading (some of) them, I remember having liked the majority of those I read.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 17:33:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:36:05 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:07:07 -0700
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two
heavily stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely
"pipe" is a rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
Viz: "With magic pipe and madrigal"
Post by Michael Pendragon
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a
caesura, the second with a sustained note.
In other words, it's competent verse. I'll grant you that that's
"something good about it".
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is
practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop.
It's a myth that English has long vowels. The "i" of "pipe" is no
longer than the "a"s of "magic" and "madrigal".
You're comparing apples to oranges. The "i" in "pipe" is long when
compared to the short "i" in "pick."
No.

Old English (alias Anglo-Saxon) had a distinction between long and
short vowels, such as long "i" and short "i".

By the eleventh Century, the long vowels had come to be pronounced
with not only a different quantity from the short vowels, but also a
different quality.

In Middle English, all vowels came to be the same length, but the
difference in quality was preserved and even exaggerated, so that the
distinction between long "i" and short "i" (originally *identical* in
quality) was preserved *only* as a difference in quality.

Thus in early Old English, "man" and "stān" had short and long
versions, respectively, of exactly the same vowel sound. In later OE,
the vowels diverged in quality as well as in quantity, and that's why
(after centuries of shifting sounds) we now say "man" and "stone",
though the vowels are indistinguishable in prolongation.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
The second "p" isn't "practically silent", but merely unvoiced. If
there were such a word as "pibe", it would take longer to pronounce
than "pipe", because a voiced consonant takes longer to pronounce
than an unvoiced one. ("Pib" would similarly be longer than "pip".)
In fact, the "a" of "madrigal" is longer than the "i" of "pipe",
because the following voiced stop ("d") and liquid ("r") prolong
the vowel. You're quite right in noticing that the voiceless stop
"p" doesn't have the same effect.
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the
content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat
to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.
In fact, the vowels are all "i"s and "a"s. I don't see (or, more
importantly, hear) any significant pattern in the sequence of front
vowels ("i") and back vowels ("a").
Post by Michael Pendragon
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear
how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of
the line.
No, the added variety of a third vowel sound would improve the line.
Apparently we have a different ear for the musical properties of
various vowels. It's possibly the result of tendency to force a
British accent on our perfectly respectable American words.
How many vowels do you hear in "with magic pipe and madrigal"?

There are three "i"s, in "with", "-ic" and "-rig-".

There's one "ai", in "pipe".

There are two "a"s, in "mag-" and "mad-".

There's a "schwa" in "-gal", which by a metrical fiction counts as a
third "a".

How do Americans mispronouce these words? "Mayjuck"? "Poip"? I suspect
that most Americans pronouce them the same way I do.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
I prefer "pipe" to "flute" or "horn", but only because it avoids
associations with Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute, Mozart) and Des
Knaben Wunderhorn (The Boy's Magical Horn, Mahler).
Post by Michael Pendragon
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up
images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful
abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying
to convey.
I don't recall Pan having a "magic pipe", except perhaps in /The
Wind in the Willows/, where the pipe has a soporific effect on its
hearers.
He has a syrinx (a.k.a., pipes of pan). IIRC the nymph, Syrinx,
transformed into a reed to escape Pan's amorous pursuit, and he
fashioned his pipes from her metamorphosed body.
A few days ago I started reading Ovid's /Metamorphoses/. Thank you so
much for the spoiler, you evil bastard.

To the Ancient Greeks, the syrinx was a trumpet, much favoured by
heralds because it made a loud noise. Hoplite armies marched to the
sound of the aulos, which is conventionally translated as "flute" but
was a kind of double oboe. Auloi were also played at symposia by
aulētai, or "flute-girls", who were no better than they should be. Pan
had nothing to do with any of it: he was principally the god of panic.

Also note the genuinely long "e" in "aulētai". "au-" is also long,
but "-ai", despite being a diphthong, is short.

In the non-Greek sense of the Great God Pan, who makes a nuisance of
himself down in the reeds by the river, he's usually depicted as
having pipes, not a pipe, so I don't think he's any more relevant to
the text than his Greek namesake.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall
symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
You've made a valiant effort, but I still don't agree that the line
is better than the one that preceded it.
Post by Michael Pendragon
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
Anything is a step up from the drivel that Dunce usually spams.
I've been ignoring Dunce's spam post for quite some time. When I
was still reading (some of) them, I remember having liked the
majority of those I read.
You used to defend the drivel written by Margaret Diddlysquat, or
whatever her name was. She was, you'll recall, the woman who succeeded
in getting her drivel published by marrying a Canadian publisher. I'm
still suspicious of your comments on Dunce's spam, since your attitude
seems to change according to whether you're currently Dunce's
net.friend or not.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 18:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:36:05 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:07:07 -0700
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two
heavily stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds, surely
"pipe" is a rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
Viz: "With magic pipe and madrigal"
Post by Michael Pendragon
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends with a
caesura, the second with a sustained note.
In other words, it's competent verse. I'll grant you that that's
"something good about it".
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which is
practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop.
It's a myth that English has long vowels. The "i" of "pipe" is no
longer than the "a"s of "magic" and "madrigal".
You're comparing apples to oranges. The "i" in "pipe" is long when
compared to the short "i" in "pick."
No.
Old English (alias Anglo-Saxon) had a distinction between long and
short vowels, such as long "i" and short "i".
By the eleventh Century, the long vowels had come to be pronounced
with not only a different quantity from the short vowels, but also a
different quality.
In Middle English, all vowels came to be the same length, but the
difference in quality was preserved and even exaggerated, so that the
distinction between long "i" and short "i" (originally *identical* in
quality) was preserved *only* as a difference in quality.
Thus in early Old English, "man" and "stān" had short and long
versions, respectively, of exactly the same vowel sound. In later OE,
the vowels diverged in quality as well as in quantity, and that's why
(after centuries of shifting sounds) we now say "man" and "stone",
though the vowels are indistinguishable in prolongation.
I sincerely appreciate the etymology lesson, Peter, as it invariably makes for an interesting subject. However, I am still convinced that the long "i" in "pipe" is held longer that a short "i" in "dirt" (which appears to be of the unvoiced variety).

In any case, I was using the classification "long" to refer to the pronunciation ("eye") which sounds joyful (as opposed to various other vowel sounds which sound less so). Or to make a musical comparison, the "mood" of long "i" differs from that of short "i" in the same way that sharps sound happier than flats.
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
The second "p" isn't "practically silent", but merely unvoiced. If
there were such a word as "pibe", it would take longer to pronounce
than "pipe", because a voiced consonant takes longer to pronounce
than an unvoiced one. ("Pib" would similarly be longer than "pip".)
In fact, the "a" of "madrigal" is longer than the "i" of "pipe",
because the following voiced stop ("d") and liquid ("r") prolong
the vowel. You're quite right in noticing that the voiceless stop
"p" doesn't have the same effect.
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the
content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight downbeat
to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the line.
In fact, the vowels are all "i"s and "a"s. I don't see (or, more
importantly, hear) any significant pattern in the sequence of front
vowels ("i") and back vowels ("a").
Post by Michael Pendragon
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear
how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of
the line.
No, the added variety of a third vowel sound would improve the line.
Apparently we have a different ear for the musical properties of
various vowels. It's possibly the result of tendency to force a
British accent on our perfectly respectable American words.
How many vowels do you hear in "with magic pipe and madrigal"?
Do I physically hear? Seven. Although the three short "i"s produce such a minimal sound as to be easily passed over without having registered on a conscious level. IOW: Rather than striking me as musical notes, they seem closer to the ticks of a metronome.
Post by Peter J Ross
There are three "i"s, in "with", "-ic" and "-rig-".
There's one "ai", in "pipe".
There are two "a"s, in "mag-" and "mad-".
There's a "schwa" in "-gal", which by a metrical fiction counts as a
third "a".
How do Americans mispronouce these words? "Mayjuck"? "Poip"? I suspect
that most Americans pronouce them the same way I do.
I was under the impression (and never having been to England, I will bow to your experience) that the British pronounced "pipe" as "peep," whereas we Yankees use the mythical long "i."
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
I prefer "pipe" to "flute" or "horn", but only because it avoids
associations with Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute, Mozart) and Des
Knaben Wunderhorn (The Boy's Magical Horn, Mahler).
Post by Michael Pendragon
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up
images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful
abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying
to convey.
I don't recall Pan having a "magic pipe", except perhaps in /The
Wind in the Willows/, where the pipe has a soporific effect on its
hearers.
He has a syrinx (a.k.a., pipes of pan). IIRC the nymph, Syrinx,
transformed into a reed to escape Pan's amorous pursuit, and he
fashioned his pipes from her metamorphosed body.
A few days ago I started reading Ovid's /Metamorphoses/. Thank you so
much for the spoiler, you evil bastard.
To the Ancient Greeks, the syrinx was a trumpet, much favoured by
heralds because it made a loud noise. Hoplite armies marched to the
sound of the aulos, which is conventionally translated as "flute" but
was a kind of double oboe. Auloi were also played at symposia by
aulētai, or "flute-girls", who were no better than they should be. Pan
had nothing to do with any of it: he was principally the god of panic.
Also note the genuinely long "e" in "aulētai". "au-" is also long,
but "-ai", despite being a diphthong, is short.
In the non-Greek sense of the Great God Pan, who makes a nuisance of
himself down in the reeds by the river, he's usually depicted as
having pipes, not a pipe, so I don't think he's any more relevant to
the text than his Greek namesake.
Mssrs. Merriam and Webster would disagree:

Definition of syrinx
1 [ Late Latin, from Greek ] : PANPIPE
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall
symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
You've made a valiant effort, but I still don't agree that the line
is better than the one that preceded it.
Post by Michael Pendragon
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and "Joy-Month."
Anything is a step up from the drivel that Dunce usually spams.
I've been ignoring Dunce's spam post for quite some time. When I
was still reading (some of) them, I remember having liked the
majority of those I read.
You used to defend the drivel written by Margaret Diddlysquat, or
whatever her name was. She was, you'll recall, the woman who succeeded
in getting her drivel published by marrying a Canadian publisher. I'm
still suspicious of your comments on Dunce's spam, since your attitude
seems to change according to whether you're currently Dunce's
net.friend or not.
No, I still think Miss Diddlysquat was a highly talented poetess.

I also still consider Dunce's Valentine's Day variation on Moore's "Believe Me, If All Those Endearing Young Charms" to be a perfect realization of its type.

And if Dunce were to spampost a poem by Bliss Carman on his blaaaargh, I should undoubtedly praise it to the skies (assuming that I was aware of what Dunce posted).
Peter J Ross
2019-07-03 20:01:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:36:05 -0700
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:07:07 -0700
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two
heavily stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds,
surely "pipe" is a rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
Viz: "With magic pipe and madrigal"
Post by Michael Pendragon
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends
with a caesura, the second with a sustained note.
In other words, it's competent verse. I'll grant you that that's
"something good about it".
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which
is practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop.
It's a myth that English has long vowels. The "i" of "pipe" is
no longer than the "a"s of "magic" and "madrigal".
You're comparing apples to oranges. The "i" in "pipe" is long
when compared to the short "i" in "pick."
No.
Old English (alias Anglo-Saxon) had a distinction between long and
short vowels, such as long "i" and short "i".
By the eleventh Century, the long vowels had come to be pronounced
with not only a different quantity from the short vowels, but also
a different quality.
In Middle English, all vowels came to be the same length, but the
difference in quality was preserved and even exaggerated, so that
the distinction between long "i" and short "i" (originally
*identical* in quality) was preserved *only* as a difference in
quality.
Thus in early Old English, "man" and "stān" had short and long
versions, respectively, of exactly the same vowel sound. In later
OE, the vowels diverged in quality as well as in quantity, and
that's why (after centuries of shifting sounds) we now say "man"
and "stone", though the vowels are indistinguishable in
prolongation.
I sincerely appreciate the etymology lesson, Peter, as it invariably
makes for an interesting subject.
It's phonology, not etymology: the study of the history of changes in
sounds, not the study of the history of changes in meanings of words.
Post by Michael Pendragon
However, I am still convinced
that the long "i" in "pipe" is held longer that a short "i" in
"dirt" (which appears to be of the unvoiced variety).
See how long you can prolong the sound of "pipe".

Very soon it will start to sound like a rahter narrow "ah", and it may
or may not turn into a rather broad "ee", depending on whether you
stop before or after breaking the diphthong.

Now try the same with "dirt": you can prolong the vowel for as long as
your breath holds without the sound changing.

Thus the monophthongal vowel of "dirt" is potentially longer in
practice than the diphthongal vowel of "pipe", because it can be
sustained without sounding "wrong".

(Note to people infected with "Southern Culture": all your vowels are
triphthongal or tetraphthongal, so don't bother trying to pronouce the
words in this exercise, or any other words.)
Post by Michael Pendragon
In any case, I was using the classification "long" to refer to the
pronunciation ("eye") which sounds joyful (as opposed to various
other vowel sounds which sound less so). Or to make a musical
comparison, the "mood" of long "i" differs from that of short "i" in
the same way that sharps sound happier than flats.
No, sharps don't sound happier than flats. I'd explain why, but there
isn't enough space in the margin of this post.

Yes, the sound of the vowel in "bite" differs from the sound of the
vowel in "beat" or "bit". But the idea that vowel sounds can be
associated with joy or other emotions seems ridiculous to me.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
The second "p" isn't "practically silent", but merely unvoiced.
If there were such a word as "pibe", it would take longer to
pronounce than "pipe", because a voiced consonant takes longer
to pronounce than an unvoiced one. ("Pib" would similarly be
longer than "pip".)
In fact, the "a" of "madrigal" is longer than the "i" of "pipe",
because the following voiced stop ("d") and liquid ("r") prolong
the vowel. You're quite right in noticing that the voiceless
stop "p" doesn't have the same effect.
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the
content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight
downbeat to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the
line.
In fact, the vowels are all "i"s and "a"s. I don't see (or, more
importantly, hear) any significant pattern in the sequence of
front vowels ("i") and back vowels ("a").
Post by Michael Pendragon
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear
how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of
the line.
No, the added variety of a third vowel sound would improve the line.
Apparently we have a different ear for the musical properties of
various vowels. It's possibly the result of tendency to force a
British accent on our perfectly respectable American words.
How many vowels do you hear in "with magic pipe and madrigal"?
Do I physically hear? Seven. Although the three short "i"s produce
such a minimal sound as to be easily passed over without having
registered on a conscious level. IOW: Rather than striking me as
musical notes, they seem closer to the ticks of a metronome.
Unless you've been studying arithmetic with Dunce, I fail to see how
you can subtract three from eight and get seven. Even if I count the
allegedly insignificant three as one, I still get six.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
There are three "i"s, in "with", "-ic" and "-rig-".
There's one "ai", in "pipe".
There are two "a"s, in "mag-" and "mad-".
There's a "schwa" in "-gal", which by a metrical fiction counts as
a third "a".
How do Americans mispronouce these words? "Mayjuck"? "Poip"? I
suspect that most Americans pronouce them the same way I do.
I was under the impression (and never having been to England, I will
bow to your experience) that the British pronounced "pipe" as
"peep," whereas we Yankees use the mythical long "i."
No, I think it's pronounced "pipe" all over the world. It's "peep"
only in French: "Je suis la pipe d'un auteur..."
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
I prefer "pipe" to "flute" or "horn", but only because it avoids
associations with Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute, Mozart) and Des
Knaben Wunderhorn (The Boy's Magical Horn, Mahler).
Post by Michael Pendragon
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up
images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful
abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying
to convey.
I don't recall Pan having a "magic pipe", except perhaps in /The
Wind in the Willows/, where the pipe has a soporific effect on its
hearers.
He has a syrinx (a.k.a., pipes of pan). IIRC the nymph, Syrinx,
transformed into a reed to escape Pan's amorous pursuit, and he
fashioned his pipes from her metamorphosed body.
A few days ago I started reading Ovid's /Metamorphoses/. Thank you so
much for the spoiler, you evil bastard.
[BEGIN DRIVEL]
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
To the Ancient Greeks, the syrinx was a trumpet, much favoured by
heralds because it made a loud noise.
[END DRIVEL]
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Hoplite armies marched to the
sound of the aulos, which is conventionally translated as "flute" but
was a kind of double oboe. Auloi were also played at symposia by
aulētai, or "flute-girls", who were no better than they should be. Pan
had nothing to do with any of it: he was principally the god of panic.
Also note the genuinely long "e" in "aulētai". "au-" is also long,
but "-ai", despite being a diphthong, is short.
In the non-Greek sense of the Great God Pan, who makes a nuisance of
himself down in the reeds by the river, he's usually depicted as
having pipes, not a pipe, so I don't think he's any more relevant to
the text than his Greek namesake.
Definition of syrinx
1 [ Late Latin, from Greek ] : PANPIPE
I have to apologise. I'd confused syrinx with salpinx. The syrinx is
indeed a simple reed pipe, according not only to Liddell but also to
Scott.

(Note that the "y" of "syrinx" is long, so perhaps we ought to say
"sigh-rinks" and "sigh-ringes".)

So it seems that "magic pipe" is not merely bathetic in comparison
with the corresponding phrase in the preceding line, but also a
cliché.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall
symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
You've made a valiant effort, but I still don't agree that the
line is better than the one that preceded it.
Post by Michael Pendragon
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and
"Joy-Month."
Anything is a step up from the drivel that Dunce usually spams.
I've been ignoring Dunce's spam post for quite some time. When I
was still reading (some of) them, I remember having liked the
majority of those I read.
You used to defend the drivel written by Margaret Diddlysquat, or
whatever her name was. She was, you'll recall, the woman who
succeeded in getting her drivel published by marrying a Canadian
publisher. I'm still suspicious of your comments on Dunce's spam,
since your attitude seems to change according to whether you're
currently Dunce's net.friend or not.
No, I still think Miss Diddlysquat was a highly talented poetess.
I also still consider Dunce's Valentine's Day variation on Moore's
"Believe Me, If All Those Endearing Young Charms" to be a perfect
realization of its type.
And if Dunce were to spampost a poem by Bliss Carman on his
blaaaargh, I should undoubtedly praise it to the skies (assuming
that I was aware of what Dunce posted).
The works of those poetasters will still be rubbish, no matter how
hard you try to defend them.

But we can agree that the poetaster currently under consideration
(whose name now escapes me) was sometimes capable of euphony.
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 20:30:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:36:05 -0700
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:07:07 -0700
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:22:11 -0700
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Even if your taste is so primitive that you prefer two
heavily stressed "m"s to the above blending of sounds,
surely "pipe" is a rude interruption?
No, "pipe" is in perfect keeping with the musicality of the line.
Explain. What's good about it?
Viz: "With magic pipe and madrigal"
Post by Michael Pendragon
I'll try.
The line consists of two sets of two iambs; the first ends
with a caesura, the second with a sustained note.
In other words, it's competent verse. I'll grant you that that's
"something good about it".
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" in "pipe" is briefly held, while the "-pe," which
is practically silent serves to bring the "i" to a dead stop.
It's a myth that English has long vowels. The "i" of "pipe" is
no longer than the "a"s of "magic" and "madrigal".
You're comparing apples to oranges. The "i" in "pipe" is long
when compared to the short "i" in "pick."
No.
Old English (alias Anglo-Saxon) had a distinction between long and
short vowels, such as long "i" and short "i".
By the eleventh Century, the long vowels had come to be pronounced
with not only a different quantity from the short vowels, but also
a different quality.
In Middle English, all vowels came to be the same length, but the
difference in quality was preserved and even exaggerated, so that
the distinction between long "i" and short "i" (originally
*identical* in quality) was preserved *only* as a difference in
quality.
Thus in early Old English, "man" and "stān" had short and long
versions, respectively, of exactly the same vowel sound. In later
OE, the vowels diverged in quality as well as in quantity, and
that's why (after centuries of shifting sounds) we now say "man"
and "stone", though the vowels are indistinguishable in
prolongation.
I sincerely appreciate the etymology lesson, Peter, as it invariably
makes for an interesting subject.
It's phonology, not etymology: the study of the history of changes in
sounds, not the study of the history of changes in meanings of words.
Thanks, for that. "Phonology"s a new addition to my vocabulary.
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
However, I am still convinced
that the long "i" in "pipe" is held longer that a short "i" in
"dirt" (which appears to be of the unvoiced variety).
See how long you can prolong the sound of "pipe".
Very soon it will start to sound like a rahter narrow "ah", and it may
or may not turn into a rather broad "ee", depending on whether you
stop before or after breaking the diphthong.
Now try the same with "dirt": you can prolong the vowel for as long as
your breath holds without the sound changing.
Thus the monophthongal vowel of "dirt" is potentially longer in
practice than the diphthongal vowel of "pipe", because it can be
sustained without sounding "wrong".
(Note to people infected with "Southern Culture": all your vowels are
triphthongal or tetraphthongal, so don't bother trying to pronouce the
words in this exercise, or any other words.)
That was an enjoyable little exercise. I was surprised to learn that the long "i" sound did, eventually, change (I'd been certain that I could sustain it).

But, of course, there's no need to hold it longer in the poem (or in the course of normal speech), in which case it's still held longer than the short "i" in "dirt."
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
In any case, I was using the classification "long" to refer to the
pronunciation ("eye") which sounds joyful (as opposed to various
other vowel sounds which sound less so). Or to make a musical
comparison, the "mood" of long "i" differs from that of short "i" in
the same way that sharps sound happier than flats.
No, sharps don't sound happier than flats. I'd explain why, but there
isn't enough space in the margin of this post.
I think they mostly do (some sharps sound a bit angry as well). Flats, otoh, all sound extremely sad.
Post by Peter J Ross
Yes, the sound of the vowel in "bite" differs from the sound of the
vowel in "beat" or "bit". But the idea that vowel sounds can be
associated with joy or other emotions seems ridiculous to me.
Since you're unable to hear the emotions of various musical notes, I'm afraid I can't help you.

Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that there still exists some language that you've yet to master. You should, theoretically, be able to determine the overall mood of a person speaking to you in that language by both his vocal inflections and the sounds (particularly the vowels) of the words themselves.

It's not an exact science, of course, but one should usually be able to intuit the emotional qualities of a word based upon its spoken sound.
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
The second "p" isn't "practically silent", but merely unvoiced.
If there were such a word as "pibe", it would take longer to
pronounce than "pipe", because a voiced consonant takes longer
to pronounce than an unvoiced one. ("Pib" would similarly be
longer than "pip".)
In fact, the "a" of "madrigal" is longer than the "i" of "pipe",
because the following voiced stop ("d") and liquid ("r") prolong
the vowel. You're quite right in noticing that the voiceless
stop "p" doesn't have the same effect.
Post by Michael Pendragon
The long "i" is also a light, joyful note which fits with the
content of the poem, while the final "-al" has a slight
downbeat to it, and makes for a stronger ending beat to the
line.
In fact, the vowels are all "i"s and "a"s. I don't see (or, more
importantly, hear) any significant pattern in the sequence of
front vowels ("i") and back vowels ("a").
Post by Michael Pendragon
Try substituting "horn" or "flute" for "pipe" and you can hear
how the long "i" sounds better in conjunction with the rest of
the line.
No, the added variety of a third vowel sound would improve the line.
Apparently we have a different ear for the musical properties of
various vowels. It's possibly the result of tendency to force a
British accent on our perfectly respectable American words.
How many vowels do you hear in "with magic pipe and madrigal"?
Do I physically hear? Seven. Although the three short "i"s produce
such a minimal sound as to be easily passed over without having
registered on a conscious level. IOW: Rather than striking me as
musical notes, they seem closer to the ticks of a metronome.
Unless you've been studying arithmetic with Dunce, I fail to see how
you can subtract three from eight and get seven. Even if I count the
allegedly insignificant three as one, I still get six.
Sorry, I'd overlooked the silent "e."
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
There are three "i"s, in "with", "-ic" and "-rig-".
There's one "ai", in "pipe".
There are two "a"s, in "mag-" and "mad-".
There's a "schwa" in "-gal", which by a metrical fiction counts as
a third "a".
How do Americans mispronouce these words? "Mayjuck"? "Poip"? I
suspect that most Americans pronouce them the same way I do.
I was under the impression (and never having been to England, I will
bow to your experience) that the British pronounced "pipe" as
"peep," whereas we Yankees use the mythical long "i."
No, I think it's pronounced "pipe" all over the world. It's "peep"
only in French: "Je suis la pipe d'un auteur..."
That must have been what I'd been thinking of.
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
I prefer "pipe" to "flute" or "horn", but only because it avoids
associations with Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute, Mozart) and Des
Knaben Wunderhorn (The Boy's Magical Horn, Mahler).
Post by Michael Pendragon
Symbolically, nature's "magic pipe" immediately conjures up
images of Pan. And Pan is a satyr -- a symbol of lusty, joyful
abandon -- which is precisely the feeling that the poet is trying
to convey.
I don't recall Pan having a "magic pipe", except perhaps in /The
Wind in the Willows/, where the pipe has a soporific effect on its
hearers.
He has a syrinx (a.k.a., pipes of pan). IIRC the nymph, Syrinx,
transformed into a reed to escape Pan's amorous pursuit, and he
fashioned his pipes from her metamorphosed body.
A few days ago I started reading Ovid's /Metamorphoses/. Thank you so
much for the spoiler, you evil bastard.
[BEGIN DRIVEL]
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
To the Ancient Greeks, the syrinx was a trumpet, much favoured by
heralds because it made a loud noise.
[END DRIVEL]
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Hoplite armies marched to the
sound of the aulos, which is conventionally translated as "flute" but
was a kind of double oboe. Auloi were also played at symposia by
aulētai, or "flute-girls", who were no better than they should be. Pan
had nothing to do with any of it: he was principally the god of panic.
Also note the genuinely long "e" in "aulētai". "au-" is also long,
but "-ai", despite being a diphthong, is short.
In the non-Greek sense of the Great God Pan, who makes a nuisance of
himself down in the reeds by the river, he's usually depicted as
having pipes, not a pipe, so I don't think he's any more relevant to
the text than his Greek namesake.
Definition of syrinx
1 [ Late Latin, from Greek ] : PANPIPE
I have to apologise. I'd confused syrinx with salpinx. The syrinx is
indeed a simple reed pipe, according not only to Liddell but also to
Scott.
(Note that the "y" of "syrinx" is long, so perhaps we ought to say
"sigh-rinks" and "sigh-ringes".)
So it seems that "magic pipe" is not merely bathetic in comparison
with the corresponding phrase in the preceding line, but also a
cliché.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
From both a musical standpoint, and in terms of the overall
symbolism, it's a perfectly rendered line.
You've made a valiant effort, but I still don't agree that the
line is better than the one that preceded it.
Post by Michael Pendragon
If the rest of the poem measured up to it, I'd be praising it
as a masterpiece.
As is, it's a big step up from "Saving Daylight" and
"Joy-Month."
Anything is a step up from the drivel that Dunce usually spams.
I've been ignoring Dunce's spam post for quite some time. When I
was still reading (some of) them, I remember having liked the
majority of those I read.
You used to defend the drivel written by Margaret Diddlysquat, or
whatever her name was. She was, you'll recall, the woman who
succeeded in getting her drivel published by marrying a Canadian
publisher. I'm still suspicious of your comments on Dunce's spam,
since your attitude seems to change according to whether you're
currently Dunce's net.friend or not.
No, I still think Miss Diddlysquat was a highly talented poetess.
I also still consider Dunce's Valentine's Day variation on Moore's
"Believe Me, If All Those Endearing Young Charms" to be a perfect
realization of its type.
And if Dunce were to spampost a poem by Bliss Carman on his
blaaaargh, I should undoubtedly praise it to the skies (assuming
that I was aware of what Dunce posted).
The works of those poetasters will still be rubbish, no matter how
hard you try to defend them.
But we can agree that the poetaster currently under consideration
(whose name now escapes me) was sometimes capable of euphony.
The poetaster in question is one Mr. Towne, and he achieved a grand total of two euphonious lines.
Peter J Ross
2019-07-04 20:44:21 UTC
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In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:30:42 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT),
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:36:05 -0700
<...>
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
However, I am still convinced that the long "i" in "pipe" is held
longer that a short "i" in "dirt" (which appears to be of the
unvoiced variety).
See how long you can prolong the sound of "pipe".
Very soon it will start to sound like a rahter narrow "ah", and it
may or may not turn into a rather broad "ee", depending on whether
you stop before or after breaking the diphthong.
Now try the same with "dirt": you can prolong the vowel for as long
as your breath holds without the sound changing.
Thus the monophthongal vowel of "dirt" is potentially longer in
practice than the diphthongal vowel of "pipe", because it can be
sustained without sounding "wrong".
(Note to people infected with "Southern Culture": all your vowels
are triphthongal or tetraphthongal, so don't bother trying to
pronouce the words in this exercise, or any other words.)
That was an enjoyable little exercise. I was surprised to learn
that the long "i" sound did, eventually, change (I'd been certain
that I could sustain it).
But, of course, there's no need to hold it longer in the poem (or in
the course of normal speech), in which case it's still held longer
than the short "i" in "dirt."
You're hearing what you want to hear.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Post by Michael Pendragon
In any case, I was using the classification "long" to refer to
the pronunciation ("eye") which sounds joyful (as opposed to
various other vowel sounds which sound less so). Or to make a
musical comparison, the "mood" of long "i" differs from that of
short "i" in the same way that sharps sound happier than flats.
No, sharps don't sound happier than flats. I'd explain why, but
there isn't enough space in the margin of this post.
I think they mostly do (some sharps sound a bit angry as well).
Flats, otoh, all sound extremely sad.
How happy does C sharp major sound? How sad does D flat major sound?
(Hint: they're the same key in different notation.)
Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by Peter J Ross
Yes, the sound of the vowel in "bite" differs from the sound of the
vowel in "beat" or "bit". But the idea that vowel sounds can be
associated with joy or other emotions seems ridiculous to me.
Since you're unable to hear the emotions of various musical notes,
I'm afraid I can't help you.
Single notes have even less emotional force than single vowel sounds.
Post by Michael Pendragon
Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that there still exists some
language that you've yet to master. You should, theoretically, be
able to determine the overall mood of a person speaking to you in
that language by both his vocal inflections and the sounds
(particularly the vowels) of the words themselves.
Not at all. For a start, Classical Arabic has three vowel sounds,
while Classical Greek has seven, as well as many diphthongs.

All scholarly attempts to discover a universal association of sounds
with meanings (including emotional meanings) have failed.
Post by Michael Pendragon
It's not an exact science, of course, but one should usually be able
to intuit the emotional qualities of a word based upon its spoken
sound.
It's not a science at all. It's just nonsense.

Even Tennyson's wonderful "the murmur of innumerable bees" doesn't
represent the sound of innumerable bees; it's more like the sound of
a solitary bumblebee.

<...>
--
PJR :-)

τὸν οἰόμενον νόον ἔχειν ὁ νουθετέων ματαιοπονεῖ.
- Democritus
George J. Dance
2019-07-03 18:33:17 UTC
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Post by Michael Pendragon
Post by George J. Dance
Post by Will Dockery
So, the guy really, really loves the Summertime.
:)
There is a time when the young Year
Goes mad with very ecstasy;
When all the rapture of the world
Is crushed in one wild melody.
- Charles Hanson Towne
It's a step up, but still an amateurish piece.
No, Pig Pen, it's a step backward. Though I'm not surprised that you'd prefer it.
Will Dockery
2019-07-01 04:16:43 UTC
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Yes, rhyming poetry often looks and sounds silly.
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 01:04:43 UTC
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Appears being the key word, apparently.

:)
Will Dockery
2019-07-03 03:15:09 UTC
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So, your accusations are bogus, Pendragon.
Michael Pendragon
2019-07-03 03:21:06 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
So, your accusations are bogus, Pendragon.
Not at all. They just have nothing to do with the current state of Dunce's blog (AFAIK, at any rate).
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